The Olivet Discourse Fulfilled

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
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The Olivet Discourse Fulfilled

#1

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:06 am

I will post this in several parts, as I will make my case and address common objections as well.

Introduction: After Jesus pronounced judgment on First Century Jerusalem in Matthew 23, He left the temple and was questioned by His disciples concerning the unthinkable idea that the Jewish temple, the centerpiece of the Jewish faith, would actually be destroyed. What follows in chapter 24 has been named the “Olivet Discourse”. Many who fail to see the apocalyptic imagery correctly in Matthew 24 have concluded that this is a prophecy about future events, but as I will show in this summary, the Olivet Discourse saw it complete fulfillment in the First Century, just like Jesus Christ said it would (Matthew 24:34). One of the most valuable companion books to study alongside the Olivet Discourse is “The Wars of the Jews” by Flavius Josephus. Josephus is valuable because he gives us a look at the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD from a point of view of a Jew from inside Jerusalem. We need to keep in mind during this reading that Jesus is addressing the concerns of His First Century Apostle's (verses 1-3). He never hints at the idea that he has the 21st Century in mind. Also during this summary, I will analyze and refute some of the flawed interpretation of our modern day endtimes doomsayers.

Matthew 24:1-2
“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There
shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”


First Century Fulfillment:
“AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.” (Josephus — Wars 6.6.1)

Matthew 24:3
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Gr. Aion)?” — KJV

“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
- NKJV

The word for "world" (kosmos) does not appear here. Instead the word is Aion, which means "age".
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#2

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:14 am

Sign #1 - FALSE CHRISTS AND PROPHETS DECEIVING MANY: (Matt. 24: 5, 11, 24).

These “signs” are surely nothing new. Moses had to deal with false prophets back in his day (Deuteronomy 18:22).

Matthew 24:4-5
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”

Matthew 24:23-28
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

Josephus writes that many false prophets and false Messiahs appeared during the government of Felix (A.D. 53-60), deluding many. Such figures played a leading role in the Jewish revolt in late A.D. 66 that led to the Jewish War.

First Century Fulfillment:
“Now as for the affairs of the Jews, they grew worse and worse continually, for the country was again filled with robbers and impostors, who deluded the multitude… These works, that were done by the robbers, filled the city with all sorts of impiety. And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God.” (Ant., XX, viii, 5-6)

Sign #2 - WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS (Matt. 24: 6-7).

Matthew 24:6
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Myth: Tim LeHaye Warns: ”…the 20th century has seen 180 million killed in wars…more than all the wars of history put together.” (Tim LeHaye — “Twelve Reasons Why This Could Be The Terminal Generation”, 1995)

Fact: A 1974 study of war shows that approximately 3 Billion people have been killed in over 14,000 wars since 3600 BC. There is nothing significant about the 20th Century.

Wars and Rumors of Wars would not have been perceived as an unusual sign during most periods of world history, but during the pax Romana war was extremely rare. E.g., Epictetus writes that "Caesar has obtained for us a profound peace. There are neither wars nor battles" (Discourses 3:13:9) Josephus and Tacitus both write of the unsettledness of the empire leading up to A.D. 70.

First Century Fulfillment:
“So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men; he also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those kingdoms which were under the Romans, and made haste for Petra, and came to Ptolemais. But as he was marching very busily, and leading his army through Judea, the principal men met him, and desired that he would not thus march through their land; for that the laws of their country would not permit them to overlook those images which were brought into it, of which there were a great many in their ensigns; so he was persuaded by what they said, and changed that resolution of his which he had before taken in this matter. Whereupon he ordered the army to march along the great plain, while he himself, with Herod the tetrarch and his friends, went up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, an ancient festival of the Jews being then just approaching; and when he had been there, and been honorably entertained by the multitude of the Jews, he made a stay there for three days, within which time he deprived Jonathan of the high priesthood, and gave it to his brother Theophilus. But when on the fourth day letters came to him, which informed him of the death of Tiberius, he obliged the multitude to take an oath of fidelity to Caius; he also recalled his army, and made them every one go home, and take their winter quarters there, since, upon the devolution of the empire upon Caius, he had not the like authority of making this war which he had before. It was also reported, that when Aretas heard of the coming of Vitellius to fight him, he said, upon his consulting the diviners, that it was impossible that this army of Vitellius's could enter Petra; for that one of the rulers would die, either he that gave orders for the war, or he that was marching at the other's desire, in order to be subservient to his will, or else he against whom this army is prepared. So Vitellius truly retired to Antioch; but Agrippa, the son of Aristobulus, went up to Rome, a year before the death of Tiberius, in order to treat of some affairs with the emperor, if he might be permitted so to do. I have now a mind to describe Herod and his family, how it fared with them, partly because it is suitable to this history to speak of that matter, and partly because this thing is a demonstration of the interposition of Providence, how a multitude of children is of no advantage, no more than any other strength that mankind set their hearts upon, besides those acts of piety which are done towards God; for it happened, that, within the revolution of a hundred years, the posterity of Herod, which were a great many in number, were, excepting a few, utterly destroyed. One may well apply this for the instruction of mankind, and learn thence how unhappy they were: it will also show us the history of Agrippa, who, as he was a person most worthy of admiration, so was he from a private man, beyond all the expectation of those that knew him, advanced to great power and authority. I have said something of them formerly, but I shall now also speak accurately about them.” (Josephus - Ant. 18:5:3).
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#3

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:42 am

Sign #3 - FAMINES (Matt. 24:7).

Matthew 24:7-8
"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Myth: Jack Van Impe Warns:
“The worst famines the world has ever known are breaking out” (Jack Van Impe — Beyond 2000 from “Perhaps Today” (http://www.jvim.com/pt/1995/#)

Fact: Of the five worst famines in History, not one occurred within the last century.

Worst Famines in History

China (1849) 14 million
China (1333-1337) 4 million
Ireland (1846) 1 million
Russia (1600) 500,000
India (1899) 250,000

Josephus writes that during Claudius' reign (A.D. 41-54) there were four seasons of great scarcity. In the fourth year of his reign, the famine in Judea was so severe that the price of food became enormous and great numbers died. (Acts 11:28). He also describes starvation and cannibalism during the final fivemonth siege of Jerusalem.

First Century Fulfillment:
“So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine, and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged; the children also and the young men wandered about the market-places like shadows, all swelled with the famine, and fell down dead, wheresoever their misery seized them. As for burying them, those that were sick themselves were not able to do it; and those that were hearty and well were deterred from doing it by the great multitude of those dead bodies, and by the uncertainty there was how soon they should die themselves; for many died as they were burying others, and many went to their coffins before that fatal hour was come. Nor was there any lamentations made under these calamities, nor were heard any mournful complaints; but the famine confounded all natural passions; for those who were just going to die looked upon those that were gone to rest before them with dry eyes and open mouths. A deep silence also, and a kind of deadly night, had seized upon the city; while yet the robbers were still more terrible than these miseries were themselves; for they brake open those houses which were no other than graves of dead bodies, and plundered them of what they had; and carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them. Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.“ (Josephus - Wars 5.12.3)

“… And besides, many of those that were worn away by the famine, and their mouths almost closed, when they saw the fire of the holy house, they exerted their utmost strength, and brake out into groans and outcries again….” (Josephus - Wars 6.5.1)

Sign #4 - EARTHQUAKES (Matt. 24:7).

Myth: Prophecy Experts Warn:
”…the 1970s…experiences the largest increase in the number of quakes known to history.” (Hal Lindsey — Countdown to Armageddon, 1980)

”Earthquakes continue to increase in frequency and intensity, just as the Bible predicts for the last days before the return of Christ. (Van Impe Intelligence Briefing, May 1997)

Fact: Siesmologists disagree.

Wilbur Rinehart — World Data Center of Boulder Colorado: “There have been no significant increase in the numbers of earthquakes during this or any other century”.

Keiiti Aki — University of Southern California Dept. of Geological Sciences: “…seismicity has been stationary for thousands of years.”

Waverly Person — US Department of Interior: “Our records do not show any significant increase in great earthquakes.”

These earthquakes occurred in Caligula's (A.D. 37-41) and Claudius' (A.D. 41-54) reigns. (Acts 16:26) Josephus reports many earthquakes in A.D. 68 in the midst of the Jewish War. Tacitus reports them throughout Rome, also nterpreting them as portents of impending divine judgment (Histories, 1.2-3).

First Century Fulfillment:
“And now did the Idumeans make an acclamation to what Simon had said; but Jesus went away sorrowful, as seeing that the Idumeans were against all moderate counsels, and that the city was besieged on both sides. Nor indeed were the minds of the Idumeans at rest; for they were in a rage at the injury that had been offered them by their exclusion out of the city; and when they thought the zealots had been strong, but saw nothing of theirs to support them, they were in doubt about the matter, and many of them repented that they had come thither. But the shame that would attend them in case they returned without doing any thing at all, so far overcame that their repentance, that they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.” (Josephus - Wars 4.4.5).[/u]
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#4

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:05 am

Sign #5 - PERSECUTION (Matt. 24:9-10)

Jesus predicts the coming persecution and martyrdom of the church, and Israel's impending judgment, adding: "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:32-36). The NT reports the intense persecution of Christians by the Jews in Acts 8:1 and 1 Thess. 2:14-16. Again, we need to remember that Jesus is taking to His Apostles. It is they who would experience these things.

Matthew 24:9-10
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

First Century Fulfillment:

Acts 8:1
“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
“For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

Sign #6 - APOSTASY (Matt. 24:10-13)

Hebrews reflects Jews apostatizing and returning to Judaism (Heb. 2:1-3, Heb. 3:6, 14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb.10:26-27). Gal. 5:4; 1 John 2:18-20, and 1 John 4:3, but especially 1 John 2:24, all of which report apostasy during the time of the apostles. Also 1 Tim. 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1-2 and 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Matthew 24:11-13
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

First Century Fulfillment:

1 Timothy 1:19
“Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:”

Sign #7 - GOSPEL PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD (Matt. 24:14):

The term "World" almost always used in a limited sense (See Luke 2:1). In both these cases, the term is used only to refer to the Roman Empire.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

First Century Fulfillment:

Romans 1:8
“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Colossians 1:6
“Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:”

Colossians 1:23
“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”
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#5

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:15 am

Sign #8 — THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

Matthew 24:15-22
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Compare Luke 21:20-24
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The Abomination of Desolation was the armed invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

First Century Fulfillment:
“And now, as the city was engaged in a war on all sides, from these treacherous crowds of wicked men, the people of the city, between them, were like a great body torn in pieces. The aged men and the women were in such distress by their internal calamities, that they wished for the Romans, and earnestly hoped for an external war, in order to their delivery from their domestical miseries. The citizens themselves were under a terrible consternation and fear; nor had they any opportunity of taking counsel, and of changing their conduct; nor were there any hopes of coming to an agreement with their enemies; nor could such as had a mind flee away; for guards were set at all places, and the heads of the robbers, although they were seditious one against another in other respects, yet did they agree in killing those that were for peace with the Romans, or were suspected of an inclination to desert them, as their common enemies. They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent." (Josephus — Wars 5.1.5)

Sign #9 — SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS

Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken".

We now get into some apocalyptic language and need to refer to the Old Testament. The darkening of heavenly bodies has always represented the fall of a kingdom. Consider Isaiah's prophecy concerning the fall of Babylon in Isaiah Chapter 13.

Isaiah 13:10
“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”

Joel uses similar language in his prophecy concerning the Day of Pentecost (Joel 2:28-32).

First Century Fulfillment:

At least one fulfillment of this prophecy took place, according to Peter, on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:16-21
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Matthew 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

More apocalyptic language. This is not about Christ's Second Coming, but His “coming on the clouds, an Old Testament symbol of judgement. Ex. In Isaiah's prophecy against Egypt, “the Lord rides on a swift cloud”. (Isaiah 19:1) Yet Egypt was destroyed by Sargon, the king of Assyria (Isaiah 20:1-6), not by a literal appearance of the Lord.
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#6

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:28 am

Sign #10 — THE GATHERING OF THE ELECT.

Matthew 24:31
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Obeying Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-24, The Jewish Christians fled to Mt. Pella in Decapolis.

First Century Fulfillment:
“As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what hesaid, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for every small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased.” — (Josephus - Wars 5:10:1)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” — (Eusebius - History of the Church 3:5:3)

THE PARABLE OF THE FIG TREE.

Matthew 24:32-33
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

The Parable of the Fig Tree (Matthew 21:18-21).

Notice that it does not mention a “rebirth” of Israel. The “fig tree” was the Israel of the First Century, which was cursed so that “no fruit (would) grow on you ever again”.

More Apocalyptic Language
Fig Tree = THIS mountain = Jerusalem
Sea = Abyss = abode of demons (The “beast” rises out of the “sea” in Rev. 13.

Matthew 24:34
"Verily I say unto you, This generation (genea) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

genea 1074: (42 occurrences.)
41 generation, 1 age (NKJV)

A common argument used by dispensationalists is that the word “generation” can also mean “race”, but this just doesn't hold water. The greek is "a genea", which means "this generation". The word appears 42 times in the Bible, and 41 of those times it is translated "generation", once it is translated "age". It never means race. If Jesus had meant race, He would have said "ethnos", not "genea". Besides, it is translated "generation" in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and in all reputable translations of the Bible. There is no getting around what Jesus said here. All of the events that He was speaking of were to happen within the Apostle's generation. This is the ONLY legitimate meaning.

Matthew 24:35-42
“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.”

First Century Fulfillment:
“Now the number of those that were carried captive during the whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege, eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation, with the citizens of Jerusalem, but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine as destroyed them more suddenly. And that this city could contain so many people in it is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. So these high priests, upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour to the eleventh, but so that a company not less than belong to every sacrifice, (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves,) and many of us are twenty in a company, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred; which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to two millions seven hundred thousand and two hundred persons that were pure and holy; for as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhea, or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice; nor indeed for any foreigners neither, who come hither to worship.” (Josephus — Wars 6.9.3)

When Titus and the Roman Army invaded Jerusalem in 70 AD, some of the citizens were taken (captive) and some were left (killed).

CONCLUSION
David Chilton, in his book “The Great Tribulation”, gives us an excellent summary of the Olivet Discourse. “The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. Even in the (unlikely) event that another temple should be built sometime in the future, Jesus' words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have nothing to say about it. He was talking solely about the Temple of that generation. There is no Scriptural basis for asserting that any other temple is meant. Jesus confirmed His disciples' fears: Jerusalem's beautiful Temple would be destroyed within that generation; her house would be left desolate." (See Matthew 23:37-38). Contrary to the popular “paperback fiction” novels of our day, the Great Tribulation is history.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#7

Post by ryo dokomi » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:29 am

i dont understand, if everything has already happened, why did Jesus not come back an second time like he promissed, and if he did, why, haveing done this in the first century, why did we go on life for more than a thousand years after all this....it doesnt make scense, they way you put it, it makes it sound like Revelation is a load of junk, and so we should just throw out the Bible and do all that we want. i just dont believe that what Jesus said was fulfilled in the first century, i think that you just didnt interpretate what it is saying very well.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7

it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19

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#8

Post by puritan lad » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:40 am

if everything has already happened
I don't believe that "everything" happened, only those things that Jesus said would happen. The fulfillment of the Great Commission, the Second Advent, the resurrection, and the final judgment have yet to occur.
why did Jesus not come back an second time like he promissed
See above. The Olivet Discourse is not about the second coming. It is about His "coming" in judgment of apostate Israel in 70 AD (Matthew 21:33-45, esp. verse 40)
i just dont believe that what Jesus said was fulfilled in the first century, i think that you just didnt interpretate what it is saying very well
Jesus said that it would. The question is, "Do you believe Him?"
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#9

Post by Believer » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:47 am

Well, anyone can make their own interpretations from the Bible. Preterism might be true, it might not be.

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Simple

#10

Post by prewrath rap » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:26 pm

No abomination of desolation has occurred. therefore the rest could not have occurred.

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#11

Post by Ark~Magic » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:04 pm

Yes, it has, and there have been numerous preterist articles written on it.
"And I shall slay them who partake of futurism, for in the preterist light there will be everlasting salvation, truth, and peace." ~ Faust

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No he hasn't

#12

Post by prewrath rap » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:10 pm

Ok prove the AOD has occurred to me.

If you read history ie josephus you will find out that during the siege of Jerusalem the Temple was destroyed by fire before the Romans came into the city. Therefore no one ie could have proclaimed himself to be God in the temple of God. And Paul tells us clearly in 2 Thess 2:1-4

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by the word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Shalom
Mark

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I believe your logic is incorrect

#13

Post by prewrath rap » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:21 pm

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,

There was no darkness or blood moon on the day of pentecost. Peter was eluding to the Last days -

Joel, Isaiah, Matt 24:29, 6th Seal all same event yet future.

Blindness is still upon Israel as to who the Messiah is and unblindness will not occur until the fulness of Gentiles be completed.

In my opinion preterism is exactly the view that paul was teaching about in 2 Thess Let no man deceive you.

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#14

Post by Ark~Magic » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:17 pm

There is no 'blood moon' or 'darkness' because these were recalling past judgements on other places mentioned in other biblical books.

There's a few good preterist articles out there on the web with different views on the AoD but you can always use google, can't you?

Here's some places to start:
http://www.tektonics.org/esch/eschatology.html
http://www.preteristsite.com
http://www.preteristarchive.com
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search
"And I shall slay them who partake of futurism, for in the preterist light there will be everlasting salvation, truth, and peace." ~ Faust

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#15

Post by Mystical » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:25 pm

Some of it makes sense. Some of it seems to be reaching. I can't make up my mind. What is the Great Commission, the Second Advent; the resurrection, and the Final Judgement (according to preterism)?

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