Are Denominations Ordained by God?

Discussions on ecclesiology such as the nature, constitution and functions of the church.
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Byblos
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#31

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:21 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:Please define your position completely and formally and provide scholarly data to support your hypothesis that that there are currently exponentially more than 38,000 denominations in Christiandom based on my real assertion that it only takes one person to file the necessary paperwork to legally create a new denomination.

Because it sounds like you are trying to be sly, in your argumentative way, of drawing a false correlation between each individuals ability to personalize their view of the world with the fact that some formal denominations in Christiandom were created by and/or currently have only one person.

I've never been a fan of those who constantly invoke contrarianism just to be contrary.
It is a simple mathematical observation based on data you provided. And being a fan is not a prerequisite to having a civilized conversation.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#32

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:58 pm

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:Please define your position completely and formally and provide scholarly data to support your hypothesis that that there are currently exponentially more than 38,000 denominations in Christiandom based on my real assertion that it only takes one person to file the necessary paperwork to legally create a new denomination.

Because it sounds like you are trying to be sly, in your argumentative way, of drawing a false correlation between each individuals ability to personalize their view of the world with the fact that some formal denominations in Christiandom were created by and/or currently have only one person.

I've never been a fan of those who constantly invoke contrarianism just to be contrary.
It is a simple mathematical observation based on data you provided. And being a fan is not a prerequisite to having a civilized conversation.
Byblos, I won't be responding to you in the future. As a moderator, you hold all the cards of power on this board right or wrong (and you certainly are wrong to the best of my understanding in this exchange) so I'll simply end with asking you (pretty please with sugar on top) in the nicest manner possible to please leave me alone to enjoy the board with others here. I believe us to be as far apart as the East is from the West with 0 in common. Thank you for your understanding and God bless you in your walk. EOM.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#33

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:15 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:I've put you on ignore Byblos and ask you in the nicest manner to please troll off someone else's posts. Thank you for your understanding (assumed consent). EOM.
You have got to be kidding me right? I'll tell you what, just because I was involved in the thread I will not outright permanently ban you. I don't care how old you are or what your situation is or even whether or not you were right or wrong but you need a lesson in mannerism and humility. Consider yourself warned.

(posted before your post was edited)
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#34

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:00 pm

For the record everyone who reads this. I often put up a rough draft of a post and then edit it to what I finally want to communicate. I can see how this could be offensive for someone hanging on my every word but it isn't intended to be. It's just me working through my feelings and intellect to arrive at the place I want to be which for my thinking style is a process. The fact I am being bullied here by a moderator that wants to pick a fight with me to kick me off the board should be taken into consideration when viewing this exchange. I have disengaged from him permanently in the hopes that it will end his vendetta against me. Thank you.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#35

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:55 pm

And for the record, I responded to a post. I had no way of knowing whether or not it was in the process of being edited and I didn't see the need to edit mine based on your subsequent edit. Regardless, however, anyone who knows me on this board knows it is not my style or mannerism to bully or intimidate anyone. In fact I am distinctly cognizant of the fact that I am a moderator and, therefore, I must balance my voluntary duties as such with the fact that I at times engage in heated discussions with other members. Disagreeing is one thing but don't expect to spew unsupported accusations and not be called on it. Maybe this is the first time you encounter a Catholic who fights back and you couldn't handle it, I really don't know. But that doesn't excuse your demeaning way of addressing others and do expect to be called on that as well. I already stated I am not banning you precisely because I didn't want to be perceived as bullying you but if you don't like the way you are being treated (extremely fairly might I add) you are certainly free to move on, particularly if you do not feel you're able to adhere to the discussion guidelines.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#36

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:25 pm

Anyways, back to the subject at hand. I do find the study of denominations a fascinating one. Consider the demise of denominations like the Shakers, for example, which reached maximum size of about 6,000 full members in 1840 yet as of July 2008 had only four members left despite their willingness to accept new members. There are determining factors for this. In the Shakers case, despite their commendable involvement with taking in and raising orphans the position of celibacy (among other primary determining factors) seem to have played a major role in their decline.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#37

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:37 am

ageofknowledge wrote:For the record everyone who reads this. I often put up a rough draft of a post and then edit it to what I finally want to communicate. I can see how this could be offensive for someone hanging on my every word but it isn't intended to be. It's just me working through my feelings and intellect to arrive at the place I want to be which for my thinking style is a process. The fact I am being bullied here by a moderator that wants to pick a fight with me to kick me off the board should be taken into consideration when viewing this exchange. I have disengaged from him permanently in the hopes that it will end his vendetta against me. Thank you.
Ageofknowledge,

Byblos is well respected on this board and many here, moderator or not, would happily come to his defense. It would therefore be in your best interest to not publicly affront him, as this only makes you look bad, but rather to resolve your difference with him privately. Byblos is more than reasonable.

You are lucky Byblos even warned you. If you can not resolve your difference and you continue to try cause division on this board against other members, the next time will be your last.

Kurieuo

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#38

Post by waynepii » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:09 am

Kurieuo wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:For the record everyone who reads this. I often put up a rough draft of a post and then edit it to what I finally want to communicate. I can see how this could be offensive for someone hanging on my every word but it isn't intended to be. It's just me working through my feelings and intellect to arrive at the place I want to be which for my thinking style is a process. The fact I am being bullied here by a moderator that wants to pick a fight with me to kick me off the board should be taken into consideration when viewing this exchange. I have disengaged from him permanently in the hopes that it will end his vendetta against me. Thank you.
Ageofknowledge,

Byblos is well respected on this board and many here, moderator or not, would happily come to his defense. It would therefore be in your best interest to not publicly affront him, as this only makes you look bad, but rather to resolve your difference with him privately. Byblos is more than reasonable.

You are lucky Byblos even warned you. If you can not resolve your difference and you continue to try cause division on this board against other members, the next time will be your last.

Kurieuo
Agree 100%.

I suggest using "preview" while fine-tuning your posts. Of course, it IS easy to hit "submit" rather than "preview" by mistake (I've done it on occasion), in which case quickly copying your post to the clipboard and then deleting the erroneous post puts things right.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#39

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:29 am

Board warning issued
by Kurieuo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:38 am

The bullying continues. Kurieuo, I won't roll over and expose my belly to you or any other authoritarian self-rightous individual (Moderator or not). You can stop with the threats and push the ban button if that will bring you your happiness. Byblos can cheer in the background and you can all congratulate yourselves on a job well done... even though it won't have been one.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#40

Post by Byblos » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:16 am

ageofknowledge wrote:Board warning issued
by Kurieuo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:38 am

The bullying continues. Kurieuo, I won't roll over and expose my belly to you or any other authoritarian self-rightous individual (Moderator or not). You can stop with the threats and push the ban button if that will bring you your happiness. Byblos can cheer in the background and you can all congratulate yourselves on a job well done... even though it won't have been one.
What is rather sad is that you do not see any fault in what you're doing. You keep crying "bullying" and "vendettas" when I don't even know you or you me. We've never had any interaction that I can recall until the last few days. What reason could I possibly have to carry a vendetta against you? Because we disagreed on a couple of points? That's silly don't you think? Or could it be that you are the one with the persecution complex, looking to justify your crude, disrespectful ways with misplaced sympathy?

For the last record, no one is bullying you and I certainly have no vendetta against you, nor is anyone looking to ban you other than for the sole purpose that you are bringing onto yourself. So please spare us the drama; we've seen it more times than we care to remember.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#41

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:01 am

ageofknowledge wrote:...Please define your position completely and formally and provide scholarly data to support your hypothesis that that there are currently exponentially more than 38,000 denominations in Christiandom based on my real assertion that it only takes one person to file the necessary paperwork to legally create a new denomination.

Because it sounds like you are trying to be sly, in your argumentative way, of drawing a false correlation between each individuals ability to personalize their view of the world with the fact that some formal denominations in Christiandom were created by and/or currently have only one person.

I've never been a fan of those who constantly invoke contrarianism just to be contrary.

Mat 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." KJV

Takes more than one...

Ageofknowledge, you sound like many here who have been hurt in Churches by people and let down often. That is tragic and it should not happen but it does. This is an area we all need to repent of if the Lord is to be among us. This requires us to exchange our axe to grind for the shepherd's staff.

Denominations can be good or bad. Christ can be in them or not. What Christ requires is for us to forgive those who hurt us in whatever Church affiliated denomination or group that betrayed us. Maybe through this, you can see your need to release any who hurt you in your church past from any debt you think they owe you. That is how Christ can be in the midst of us all.

When I read your post, I see you have great pain and undergone much suffering. Don't become bitter or justify it. Here is a suggestion, take a few days off and rest in the Lord and read Mat 18:20 and ponder it: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." KJV

Are you alone?
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#42

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:25 am

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:Board warning issued
by Kurieuo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:38 am

The bullying continues. Kurieuo, I won't roll over and expose my belly to you or any other authoritarian self-rightous individual (Moderator or not). You can stop with the threats and push the ban button if that will bring you your happiness. Byblos can cheer in the background and you can all congratulate yourselves on a job well done... even though it won't have been one.
What is rather sad is that you do not see any fault in what you're doing. You keep crying "bullying" and "vendettas" when I don't even know you or you me. We've never had any interaction that I can recall until the last few days. What reason could I possibly have to carry a vendetta against you? Because we disagreed on a couple of points? That's silly don't you think? Or could it be that you are the one with the persecution complex, looking to justify your crude, disrespectful ways with misplaced sympathy?

For the last record, no one is bullying you and I certainly have no vendetta against you, nor is anyone looking to ban you other than for the sole purpose that you are bringing onto yourself. So please spare us the drama; we've seen it more times than we care to remember.
I'm sure you have and it's a result of your authoritarianism. Kurieuo comes rushing in like an enraged hippo to protect an overly sensitive weaker male. I'm an Alpha male and simply not going to roll under and agree with that behavior. This site is awesome and I'll continue to use it as a resource long after I've been banned over petty nonsense. But the reason why there's so few regular posters and a lot of moderators is becoming clear to me now. You eventually ban everyone that disagrees with you, challenges your position on a topic, or doesn't goose step to your rendention of political correctness in their communiques. Most of you moderators need to grow up and let us have our say rather than quickly showing us the door everytime you have a feeling things didn't go exactly as you thought they should.
Last edited by ageofknowledge on Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#43

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:54 am

ageofknowledge wrote:I'm sure you have and it's a result of your authoritarianism. Kurieuo comes rushing in like an enraged female hippo to protect an overly sensitive weaker male. I'm an Alpha male and simply not going to roll under and agree with that behavior. This site is awesome and I'll continue to use it as a resource long after I've been banned by Nazi acting housewives over petty nonsense. But the reason why there's so few regular posters and a lot of moderators is becoming clear to me now. You eventually ban everyone that disagrees with you, challenges your position on a topic, or doesn't goose step to your rendention of political correctness in their communiques. Most of you moderators need to grow up and let us have our say rather than quickly showing us the door everytime you have a feeling things didn't go exactly as you thought they should.
Age, c'mon, the reason there are few regular posters (and that's actually not a fair assessment, as far as I can tell, from having visited other boards) is because people move on. When I first started posting at this board, there were other regulars, but they are now busier with jobs or graduate school or whatever - they weren't banned. Of course some people are banned, but they usually aren't around long enough to begin with - they usually never become regular posters.

You say a lot of biblical things, kind things, in many posts. So I don't understand why you are into name-calling. We are to be slow to anger, not curse each other, and respect authority. These things aren't always easy, but if you call a guy an enraged female hippo, I'd say that you are clearly picking a fight! We're not supposed to brag, either, but saying you're an alpha male seems like bragging to me (and completely out of place here). I guess that makes Byblos and Kurieou the Beta males. Lol. I wonder how many of the apostles and disciples used that one when ministries were doled out. :lol:

Link to Alpha Male essay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(biology)

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#44

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:51 am

cslewislover wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:I'm sure you have and it's a result of your authoritarianism. Kurieuo comes rushing in like an enraged female hippo to protect an overly sensitive weaker male. I'm an Alpha male and simply not going to roll under and agree with that behavior. This site is awesome and I'll continue to use it as a resource long after I've been banned by Nazi acting housewives over petty nonsense. But the reason why there's so few regular posters and a lot of moderators is becoming clear to me now. You eventually ban everyone that disagrees with you, challenges your position on a topic, or doesn't goose step to your rendention of political correctness in their communiques. Most of you moderators need to grow up and let us have our say rather than quickly showing us the door everytime you have a feeling things didn't go exactly as you thought they should.
Age, c'mon, the reason there are few regular posters (and that's actually not a fair assessment, as far as I can tell, from having visited other boards) is because people move on. When I first started posting at this board, there were other regulars, but they are now busier with jobs or graduate school or whatever - they weren't banned. Of course some people are banned, but they usually aren't around long enough to begin with - they usually never become regular posters.

You say a lot of biblical things, kind things, in many posts. So I don't understand why you are into name-calling. We are to be slow to anger, not curse each other, and respect authority. These things aren't always easy, but if you call a guy an enraged female hippo, I'd say that you are clearly picking a fight! We're not supposed to brag, either, but saying you're an alpha male seems like bragging to me (and completely out of place here). I guess that makes Byblos and Kurieou the Beta males. Lol. I wonder how many of the apostles and disciples used that one when ministries were doled out. :lol:

Link to Alpha Male essay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(biology)

Ack. Gender correction made.

I'm not into name calling or trying to turn this into a lost episode of trailer park boys but I'm tired of the beta mods flagging me in preparation for a ban because I don't always agree with them. This all started because I made an accurate assertion that it took only 1 person to start a new denomination. Next thing I know I'm having to listen to a ridiculous assertion that because it only takes 1 person to start a new denomination I am saying there are exponentially more than 38,000 denominations in Christiandom. What nonsense. When I point out to the person that it looks to me like they are trying to be sly in using the fact that each person can personalize a worldview and that doesn't count toward the formation of a formal denomination the person, who just happens to be a mod go figure, throws a tizzy and now here I am warned again and on my way to a ban. Yes it looks exactly like a setup to me and I said so. Of course, it's funny to you because you get to stay. But I think the whole thing is a stinking thinking piece of four year old baloney and the warning should be recalled and those mods (not you cs) who act like oversensitive bossy kids should apologize to me for the way they have treated me. Oh and the fact I often work through my posts real time rather than offline and then post them struck a nerve somehow.

Other than that, I think if the mods would be cool and stop trying to turn this into High Noon everytime someone has their say, everything would be fine. But once their noses get bent they won't let it rest until they ban everyone they deem responsible and that means me.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#45

Post by zoegirl » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:28 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:For the record everyone who reads this. I often put up a rough draft of a post and then edit it to what I finally want to communicate. I can see how this could be offensive for someone hanging on my every word but it isn't intended to be. It's just me working through my feelings and intellect to arrive at the place I want to be which for my thinking style is a process.
YOu can preview as well as create a draft. In a discussion where the people invovled are responding pretty quickly it's wise to make sure that what is written is what you want them to respond to. Otherwise, the draft will be what they respond to.
age wrote:The fact I am being bullied here by a moderator that wants to pick a fight with me to kick me off the board should be taken into consideration when viewing this exchange.

Age, there is a happy medium here between sugary sweetness and outright anger and wrath on your part. A debate is just that....a back and forth between two or three people. To respond with such....wrath to some pretty simple questions is some pretty exagerrated reactions on your part. Perhaps this is fueled you not liking Byblos reacting to your comments about Catholicism, I don't know. Before going from 0-10 in just two posts, you should tr resolving the debate. It was simply about what defines a denomination, hardly worthwhile of "I'm going to ignore you, how dare you!" response.

There is no bullying, only a (proper) response to outrageous reactions. Byblos himself excused himself from moderator duties with regard to you which should show that he is not using his moderator status as a bully pulpit. He has said that he will not ban you.
age wrote: I have disengaged from him permanently in the hopes that it will end his vendetta against me. Thank you.
There is no vendetta.

Now, the question posed was simply how many people define a denomination? Shall we resume the discussion?
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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