Are Denominations Ordained by God?

Discussions on ecclesiology such as the nature, constitution and functions of the church.
LXX
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#16

Post by LXX » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:20 am

xpresstruth wrote:No one I've come across with this question has given me a straight answer. Did God start denominations? If he didn't, then should any true follower of Jesus be a part of any denomination?
Hello, to answer your first question directly,,,"NO". The word "denomination" was created in the 15th century. Meaning " a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices". Your second question then assumes that if God didn't "create" this word then it is not to be apart of any christian lifestyle.
The funny thing is that Paul already addressed the meaning of the word denomination in Romans chapter 14. The one brother that worships one day as holy and the other as all days are holy. Both are right in Gods eyes. Both brothers can be a representation of different beliefs and practices, like denominations, but both being united by God.
Please stop trying to find ways to divide the faith and work more into unifying christians.

God bless
LXX

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#17

Post by madscientist » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:19 pm

Well, came across a book explaining why the Catholic faith is the "right" one (im catholic but been wavering with denominations and questionng it :lol) and says that only the Catholic Church has managed to retain its unity, it's also Catholic, apostolic, Holy. Author of book (Scott Hahn) argues others have split and that's not the unity.
Then again how's that bad or good - we Catholics perceive it as bad, but i can see why... separation of groups from a bigger entity is never appreciated by the former bigger part.

Again, wonder whether we as christians (that word including Catholics!) should be optimistic or pessimistic. in the way pessimistic is to say "isnt good enough u r christian u shud be this denom" or optimistic and say "well, u are not this particular denominatoon but it's still good that u are at least some christiam". Bet i take the 2nd stance even tho people say im pessimistic :ebiggrin: then again how God sees it i wonder! :P But i dont see why God allowed the Church to break and form denominations as numerous as we see them nowadays. Hows that beneficial i dont know. Again does it matter to "be right"? everyone believes theyre right, and is im Catholic the arguments i get are that we are the only Church which remained loyal and was as it was. ofcourse looking back at the corruption there was - dont know much abiout it. but, Luther did have some point to make. then again defendants of saying corruption wasnt too bad say that if church went corrupt it has nothing to do with the actual church but that it's purely people's fault... or that, how people are in a particular religion doesnt reflect the religion.
again people have free will but if it went corrupt who was to blame? i learned in history class long ago it was due to politics and too much power and wealth of course... that Church rulers had too much of everything... let's just imagine crusades, with and heretics burning and all that. then people say it was the people's fault and that it doesnt reflect the nature of the Church. Hmm...

and having arguments across denominations doesnt make sense and doesnt lead anywhere, because we all believe we are right and maybe even too afraid to actually question and doubt our denomination and so instead want to stay loyal to it and maybe even blindly stick on... Someone said to me that the Book of Mormon is nothing but a piece of rubbish (not in this sense) and that he tried to explain to someone that no, it's not even true and why he believes it?! well, i could see his point because if the book says that this is the truth and that u must attend church of mormon is a sin of course it means those already mormons will be afraid and so will remain there!! 8-}2 And yes this can extend to other denominations and religions - we are told that we are right, that giving up our religion is sinful and something horrific; but then how should we expect people to be less biased and try to accept the truth??

anyway felt sort of philosophical (it's 00:17 here right now:D) but felt like had to get these issues somewhere. it's sad and pathetic how we all think our beliefs are right just because somewhere it says they are - the biggest circular argument of all times... then we could create anything and defend it. People may convert to some diffrent denomination or religion, but that always requires first to drop the first faith - and how willing are we people to do it?? If we all believe we are right and all are wrong, at the end there can be at maximum 1 right - or no-one completely right, which was what i feared... :sleep:
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#18

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:50 pm

Q: "Are Denominations Ordained by God?"
A: No!

God never ordained the over 38,000 different Christian denominations that exist in the world today (http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... ntoday.htm). He ordained the apostolic church and empowered it to fulfill it's mission until the return of Christ.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#19

Post by B. W. » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:15 am

ageofknowledge wrote:Q: "Are Denominations Ordained by God?"
A: No!

God never ordained the over 38,000 different Christian denominations that exist in the world today (http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... ntoday.htm). He ordained the apostolic church and empowered it to fulfill it's mission until the return of Christ.
The Apostolic Church, as Paul writes in 1 Co 12, is made up of many parts but not all have the same function or purposes.

Let us all look at ourselves and see what part of the body we are in? An eye, ear, mouth, elbow, little toe church...?

One body - many members...
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#20

Post by ageofknowledge » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:15 pm

B. W. wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:Q: "Are Denominations Ordained by God?"
A: No!

God never ordained the over 38,000 different Christian denominations that exist in the world today (http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... ntoday.htm). He ordained the apostolic church and empowered it to fulfill it's mission until the return of Christ.
The Apostolic Church, as Paul writes in 1 Co 12, is made up of many parts but not all have the same function or purposes.

Let us all look at ourselves and see what part of the body we are in? An eye, ear, mouth, elbow, little toe church...?

One body - many members...
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I don't believe Paul meant that an eye represents Roman Catholics, an ear represents Greek Orthodox, a mouth represents Baptists, an elbow represents Lutherans, etc... through over 38,000 denominations BW. The giftedness Paul was referring to was within the early apostolic church before denominations existed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#21

Post by B. W. » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:57 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:...I don't believe Paul meant that an eye represents Roman Catholics, an ear represents Greek Orthodox, a mouth represents Baptists, an elbow represents Lutherans, etc... through over 38,000 denominations BW. The giftedness Paul was referring to was within the early apostolic church before denominations existed.
That was not my point nor was it Paul's: God places each member in in His Body where they best fit. Also I do not read different Denominations as body parts into the text.

Question: According to what I am understanding you to say is this - all Denominations are evil and not of God and there is only one true Church - if that is the case - which one?

Next Question: When was the first Church Split and how did it affect the growth of the Church?
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#22

Post by ageofknowledge » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:30 pm

B. W. wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:...I don't believe Paul meant that an eye represents Roman Catholics, an ear represents Greek Orthodox, a mouth represents Baptists, an elbow represents Lutherans, etc... through over 38,000 denominations BW. The giftedness Paul was referring to was within the early apostolic church before denominations existed.
That was not my point nor was it Paul's: God places each member in in His Body where they best fit. Also I do not read different Denominations as body parts into the text.

Question: According to what I am understanding you to say is this - all Denominations are evil and not of God and there is only one true Church - if that is the case - which one?

Next Question: When was the first Church Split and how did it affect the growth of the Church?
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I was wondering what you were getting at. Glad it wasn't that. No I'm not saying all denominations are evil. What I am saying is that it is Jesus's wish that his disciples be one even as He and His father (e.g. God) are one. That's what Jesus said to his disciples. 38,000 denominations representing so much difference and disagreement reveal that corporately his disciples have fallen short of Jesus's wish for us in this regard.

I would say the first threat of a church split occurred when Gentiles began to be saved. Fortunately, that was resolved and it didn't split the church. The first split began early at the end of the first century as heretical doctrines arose.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#23

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:49 am

ageofknowledge wrote:...I was wondering what you were getting at. Glad it wasn't that. No I'm not saying all denominations are evil. What I am saying is that it is Jesus's wish that his disciples be one even as He and His father (e.g. God) are one. That's what Jesus said to his disciples. 38,000 denominations representing so much difference and disagreement reveal that corporately his disciples have fallen short of Jesus's wish for us in this regard.

I would say the first threat of a church split occurred when Gentiles began to be saved. Fortunately, that was resolved and it didn't split the church. The first split began early at the end of the first century as heretical doctrines arose.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant either; however, I would not blame the Apostles to have fallen short of Jesus's wish for us because there approx 38,000 sects either. There will always be Judas's and False brethren in the Church till Christ return. As the old syaing goes - "Birds of a feather flock together."

It is not denominations or religious creeds that save but what Jesus describes in John 17:3 that does. I would say a good majority of those 38,000 do ascribe to this. Many may disagree concerning unon-essential things likes YEC, OEC, predestination, worship styles, etc but they do agree on John 17:3.
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#24

Post by ageofknowledge » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:44 am

John 17:3 (New American Standard Bible): 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, (A)the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom (B)You have sent.

Well BW that is a very good point you make. :amen:

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#25

Post by madscientist » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:27 am

Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#26

Post by ageofknowledge » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:09 am

madscientist wrote:Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
First off, most of those 38,000 denominations have very few people in them. Less than a hundred denominations make up most of the populace of Christianity.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#27

Post by Byblos » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:47 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:
madscientist wrote:Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
First off, most of those 38,000 denominations have very few people in them. Less than a hundred denominations make up most of the populace of Christianity.
So how many people does it take for it to count as a denomination?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#28

Post by ageofknowledge » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:47 pm

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
madscientist wrote:Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
First off, most of those 38,000 denominations have very few people in them. Less than a hundred denominations make up most of the populace of Christianity.
So how many people does it take for it to count as a denomination?
Just one.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#29

Post by Byblos » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:14 am

ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
madscientist wrote:Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
First off, most of those 38,000 denominations have very few people in them. Less than a hundred denominations make up most of the populace of Christianity.
So how many people does it take for it to count as a denomination?
Just one.
In that case you've just exponentially increased them well beyond 38,000.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Are Denominations Ordained by God?

#30

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
madscientist wrote:Well, so does it look like God doesnt mind the differences? 38000 is scarily many!! i thought there were about hundred, not more...
And, what are we judged upon? How well we obeyed our denomination? What if we dont agree to rules set out by our church - can we still partly follow it? And when JC speaks of unity, is this ALL the Christians or just "the Church" which existed before the splits?
Some of the biggest problem is, that it is not just ways of having service, etc that are different but often moral issues such as conntraception, etc... which matter; and also how to get saved. If one is misled and believes something false; and that false belief loses him salvation - then whose fault is it? Or is that not possible? Are we judged on what we know/think we know only?
First off, most of those 38,000 denominations have very few people in them. Less than a hundred denominations make up most of the populace of Christianity.
So how many people does it take for it to count as a denomination?
Just one.
In that case you've just exponentially increased them well beyond 38,000.
Please define your position completely and formally and provide scholarly data to support your hypothesis that that there are currently exponentially more than 38,000 denominations in Christiandom based on my real assertion that it only takes one person to file the necessary paperwork to legally create a new denomination.

Because it sounds like you are trying to be sly, in your argumentative way, of drawing a false correlation between each individuals ability to personalize their view of the world with the fact that some formal denominations in Christiandom were created by and/or currently have only one person.

I've never been a fan of those who constantly invoke contrarianism just to be contrary.

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