Terri Shiavo's quality of life

[Mastermind]

What I said is that this issue has only become an issue because of christian etc. this holds true by the statement as the core group of instigators etc are christian. My statement stands, and please dont try a rebuttal for your own sake...

You are right, most pro lifers are christian. so what? How does that make pro lifers the same thing as christians? And you keep warning me about these fierce rebuttals of yours, but I see nothing. Speak up.

http://www.aan.com/professionals

I'm waiting for some lol replies from you Wink

I'm waiting for a direct link to an article relevant to the discussion. I don't have time to find your resources.

It is impossible to prove a case to 100% certainty that much can be said.

I don't want it proven 100%. I want it proven, as the law says "beyond a shadow of a doubt". If you bring enough evidence that absolutely nothing looks suspicious, I will change my mind.

In where has the system erred? What information were made in public.

Bad medical practice. The system's unwillingness to review the case again. The fact that the judiciary branch has been defying congress for a while and the media is backing them up. The husband's hound-like attitude in desperately trying to get her killed. The fact that he lied in court when he said he would use the money to provide her with the best medical treatment and didn't. His association with notorious pro-death doctors whose bias the judge never disputed(unlike the pro-life doctors). The lack of a living will(If the court is willing to execute her on hearsay, it's ridiculous for me to accept that they didn't make a mistake).

empty rhetorics again lol...

As oppossed to liberal secularist government of the US.

As opposed to the pagan roman empire. As opposed to the islamic saracens. As opposed to the islamic ottoman empire. As opposed to the christian byzantine empire. There are plenty of examples of efficiently run, prosperous religious nations. What's your point? Medieval europe did just fine when compared to the rest of the world at its time. We haven't had a religious government in europe or america for quite some time. The middle east is useless because it is no longer a center of commerce thanks to the development of efficient transportation technology, and since you can't sell or use sand for anything, I doubt they'll recover no matter who is running it.

[Mastermind]

Oh, and LOL. There, happy?

[Anonymous]

You are right, most pro lifers are christian. so what? How does that make pro lifers the same thing as christians? And you keep warning me about these fierce rebuttals of yours, but I see nothing. Speak up.

haha, i in no where said i was going to rebutt fiercely... you musnt let your imagination run wild, i'm not out to eat you. Sigh, isnt it obvious the prolife movement is a thinly vield chirstian moral movement. do i have to establish a causal link here?

waiting for a direct link to an article relevant to the discussion. I don't have time to find your resources

dont be lazy, all the information is in there

I don't want it proven 100%. I want it proven, as the law says "beyond a shadow of a doubt". If you bring enough evidence that absolutely nothing looks suspicious, I will change my mind.

If the court appointed neruologist whos finding is verified by the AAN and not some random nurse is not enough to dispel your doubts ehh... I cant help you then..

The system's unwillingness to review the case again

Terri Schiavo's is the most intensively litigated “right-to-die” case in US history, with proceedings in 18 courts over the last seven years. The system is unwilling to review the case.. balls...

The fact that the judiciary branch has been defying congress for a while and the media is backing them up

Kudos, the judiciary branch should act independently upholding the law impartially, or you see that as a problem?

The husband's hound-like attitude in desperately trying to get her killed.
The fact that he lied in court when he said he would use the money to provide her with the best medical treatment and didn't

ehh?
Anyway here's a quote from newsweek
'In the early years of her condition, Michael and the Schindlers got along harmoniously, even living together in a house on the Gulf Coast for a while. They ensured that Terri received all variety of therapies, including physical, occupational and recreational. When those didn't work, Michael flew her out to California, where a doctor implanted platinum electrodes into her brain as part of an experimental procedure that ultimately failed. Back in Florida, Michael enlisted family members to record audiotapes of their voices, which he played for Terri on a Walkman. He was fastidious about Terri's appearance, spraying her with Picasso perfume and outfitting her in stirrup pants and matching tops from The Limited. At one Florida nursing home, he was so demanding that administrators sought a restraining order against him. But Gloria Centonze, who worked there at the time (and by coincidence later married into the family of Michael's future girlfriend), recalls a frequent comment among the nurses: 'He may be a bastard, but if I were sick like that, I wish he was my husband.' To better care for Terri, Michael even enrolled in nursing school.”

As opposed to the pagan roman empire. As opposed to the islamic saracens. As opposed to the islamic ottoman empire. As opposed to the christian byzantine empire. There are plenty of examples of efficiently run, prosperous religious nations. What's your point? Medieval europe did just fine when compared to the rest of the world at its time. We haven't had a religious government in europe or america for quite some time. The middle east is useless because it is no longer a center of commerce thanks to the development of efficient transportation technology, and since you can't sell or use sand for anything, I doubt they'll recover no matter who is running it.

my point is compared these are all inferior form of governance, compared to secular democratic government as adopted by the western society.

Maybe you have not study world history for you would no doubt realise how far europe lag behind china during the medival ages.

We haven't had a religious government in europe or america for quite some time. The middle east is useless because it is no longer a center of commerce thanks to the development of efficient transportation technology, and since you can't sell or use sand for anything,

Ehh... make a wild guess where all the oil that keeps the world running is located

[Anonymous]

oh and yeah thanks for your lol replies

[Anonymous]

I forgot to add this...


the official report submitted to Florida Governor Jeb Bush on December 1, 2003, by Jay Wolfson, the Guardian Ad Litem to Ms. Schiavo appointed pursuant to Florida state law and the order of the chief judge of Florida's 6th Judicial Circuit. The report details the extent of Ms. Schiavo's neurological injury, the aggressive but futile efforts to restore cognitive functions, and also—in direct contradiction to the claims of the right-wing slander machine—the completely appropriate use of money awarded to Ms. Schiavo as a result of a malpractice suit initiated by Michael on her behalf. The report states: “The court established a trust fund for Theresa's financial award, with SouthTrust Bank as the Guardian and an independent trustee. This fund was meticulously managed and accounted for and Michael Schiavo had no control over its use. There is no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa's estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained.”

[bizzt]

Ehh... make a wild guess where all the oil that keeps the world running is located

Except for Saudi Arabia, Canada is the next leading Oil Reserve in the World

[Anonymous]

Except for Saudi Arabia, Canada is the next leading Oil Reserve in the World

indeed... is that suppose to invalidate my statement that oil production is centered in middle east.

[Mastermind]

haha, i in no where said i was going to rebutt fiercely... you musnt let your imagination run wild, i'm not out to eat you. Sigh, isnt it obvious the prolife movement is a thinly vield chirstian moral movement. do i have to establish a causal link here?

Actually, yes, most pro life members are christian, for two reasons:

1) Aheists have no reason to care about human life.
2) Christianity is the overwhelming majority in the population. I'm willing to bet that the pro choice movement is(at least on paper), also predominantly Christian

What I don't get is your insistance that it's some sort of Christian cabal ready to send the US into another dark age. It isn't, it's a group of people, mostly Christian(just like their oposition) that is fighting for a cause. Perhaps these groups are also Christians, eh?

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/
http://www.feministsforlife.org/

Saying it's a Christian conspiracy is a slap in the face for everybody else who isn't Christian yet is moral enough to care about the destruction of life.

dont be lazy, all the information is in there

When quoting something, you usually provide an exact replica of the relevant quest in your post, as well as a link. You don't honestly expect me to do the research for you?

If the court appointed neruologist whos finding is verified by the AAN and not some random nurse is not enough to dispel your doubts ehh... I cant help you then..Razz

You are mistaken. It's not necessarily that I care if she is in a PVS or not. The entire trial looks suspicious altogether, and it being legitimate in one area won't change that.

Terri Schiavo's is the most intensively litigated “right-to-die” case in US history, with proceedings in 18 courts over the last seven years. The system is unwilling to review the case.. balls...

When most of those courts simply upheld the previous one's ruling because they didn't feel like dealing with it again, it further destroys my faith in the system altogether. I'm sure you can understand why.

Kudos, the judiciary branch should act independently upholding the law impartially, or you see that as a problem?

Really? How about all those radical judges allowing gay marriage and openly defying congress who never made a law allowing it? Gay marriage is illegal in most states yet that isn't stopping the judiciary from reiterpreting law to make it fit their beliefs. They're not just interpreting laws, they're making them up, which is none of their business.

ehh?
Anyway bla bla bla

Do you take me for some sort of idiot? Okay, don't answer that, but seriously. I've heard it all before. THe fact remains that he spent most of the money on his lawyer fees. I don't care if he spent some of it on her care, I never even denied that.

my point is compared these are all inferior form of governance, compared to secular democratic government as adopted by the western society.

How many modern day democracies are capable of holding together an empire that occupies almost two continents without the benefits of modern transportation and communication? And didn't democracy spawn hitler? How are they inferior? They no longer exist because of sissy liberals who insist on leading humanity towards its destruction. Democracy is a good system, but by no means perfect, or the best. You'd be interested to know that the US isn't even a real democracy.

Maybe you have not study world history for you would no doubt realise how far europe lag behind china during the medival ages.

And China considered its emperor a living God. How exactly is that not a mixture of state and "church"?

Ehh... make a wild guess where all the oil that keeps the world running is located

And make a wild guess on how many people in the middle east benefit from that oil.

I forgot to add this...

yes, I'm well aware that Mr. Satan found a legal way of wasting the money. How exactly does this make him less of a liar?

[Anonymous]

Right...

What I don't get is your insistance that it's some sort of Christian cabal ready to send the US into another dark age. It isn't, it's a group of people, mostly Christian(just like their oposition) that is fighting for a cause. Perhaps these groups are also Christians, eh?

for god sake, stop twisting my point so you have something to rebutt to. My point is that its a chrstian issue, you lose on this one so zip it.

When quoting something, you usually provide an exact replica of the relevant quest in your post, as well as a link. You don't honestly expect me to do the research for you?

Fair enough.
http://www.aan.com/advocacy/pdfs/Bernat ... timony.pdf
http://www.aan.com/professionals/practi ... 5.1015.pdf

you lose on this one again, zip it .

You are mistaken. It's not necessarily that I care if she is in a PVS or not. The entire trial looks suspicious altogether, and it being legitimate in one area won't change that.

She being PVS is the central issue. Its simple, if she is PVS, pull the plugh, if she is not dont pull the plug. What other issues are there?

They're not just interpreting laws, they're making them up, which is none of their business.

interesting, provide a link? Anyway you're using empty rhetorics again, please show that in this case the judiciary system has not abided by its protocol. In other words zip it as they did. you lose on this one.

THe fact remains that he spent most of the money on his lawyer fees. I don't care if he spent some of it on her

I fail to see how this is even relevant, as her custodian, he has the right to fight for her rights as perceived by him. In this case he was using the funds to fight for her right to die.

How many modern day democracies are capable of holding together an empire that occupies almost two continents without the benefits of modern transportation and communication?

And the largest empire ever was the mongolian one, who raped and sacked every village. You're an idiot to use geographical size as a comparison of affluence, wealth, social justice etc.

And didn't democracy spawn hitler?

democracy brought hitler into power, and if the principle democracy was upheld when he was in power, none of what happened would have happened. Idiot, another empty rethoric

Democracy is a good system, but by no means perfect, or the best

the theorcratic government etc is better eh... lets look at talibans, iran etc...

And China considered its emperor a living God. How exactly is that not a mixture of state and "church"?

chinese dyansties were not theocratic government. Do you want to go into a debate in that, And I was only pointing out china to address your ignorance that middle europe had no peers, not to fascillitate my argument that secular democracy trumps theocracy.

yes, I'm well aware that Mr. Satan found a legal way of wasting the money. How exactly does this make him less of a liar?

right... this sort of summarize the way you argue.

[Anonymous]

And make a wild guess on how many people in the middle east benefit from that oil.

you idiot, make a wild guess why i even stated that. Hint: middle east has only sand to sell. And make a wild guess what form of governance resulted in the above quote. hint: theocracy

[BobSmith]

It's wonderful that even though you disagree you are still able to give each other magic sparkling stars (******) in this discussion

[Mastermind]

for god sake, stop twisting my point so you have something to rebutt to. My point is that its a chrstian issue, you lose on this one so zip it.

How is it a Christian issue if there are pro life ATHEIST organisations? Answer this question and I'll give you the point.

Fair enough.
http://www.aan.com/advocacy/pdfs/Bernat ... timony.pdf
http://www.aan.com/professionals/practi ... 5.1015.pdf

you lose on this one again, zip it .

From the article:

"Physicians diagnosing PVS have the duty to show the complete absence of any evidence of awareness. Testing should include observing the patient, interacting with the patient during a neurological examination, talking to nursing cragivers and family members, and examining laboratory tests such as EEGs and CT scans or MRIs"

Care to take that foot out of your mouth anytime soon?

She being PVS is the central issue. Its simple, if she is PVS, pull the plugh, if she is not dont pull the plug. What other issues are there?

From a murdering scum like you, maybe. It is irrelevant if she is PVS if she wouldn't have wanted to be killed, something that has not been proven as far as I'm concerned. And what "plug"? She isn't dying. She can swallow liquids and could be fed without any tubes if those refelxes were improved. Tell me one thing master skeptic, since her body was just a sack of meat, why not let the parents keep her as a pet?

interesting, provide a link? Anyway you're using empty rhetorics again, please show that in this case the judiciary system has not abided by its protocol. In other words zip it as they did. you lose on this one.

Wow, claiming victory before I even cough up the link, eh? And the burden of proof is on you to show that they DID abide by the protocol. If not, I see no reason why I should be bothered to do any research. The simple fact that you are using this as an argument instead of going into specifics(which I mentined btw) is enough for me to know you don't really know much about the case. At any rate, here is your link:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ages_x.htm

I find it amusing that you haven't heard of judges giving gay marriage licenses when they're not allowed to, there have been plenty of cases. In the above case, they got canned.

I fail to see how this is even relevant, as her custodian, he has the right to fight for her rights as perceived by him. In this case he was using the funds to fight for her right to die.

He said he would TAKE CARE OF HER with it, not "fight for her rights" with it.

And the largest empire ever was the mongolian one, who raped and sacked every village. You're an ***** to use geographical size as a comparison of affluence, wealth, social justice etc.

Social justice is relative. And as a side note, prove to me that sacking and raping villages is immoral or even a bad thing.

democracy brought hitler into power, and if the principle democracy was upheld when he was in power, none of what happened would have happened. *****, another empty rethoric

Wrong. Under a monarchy, people would usually be in a bad enough mood that if the king turned dictator, they would rebel. In hitler's case, people were used to sissy democracy crap and did nothing. And what "principles of democracy" weren't upheld? Hitler wanted to come to power to remove democracy. By the principles of democracy, majority decides, even if the decision is to get rid of the democracy. Speaking of democracy, how come you were comlaining earlied about Christian politicians legislating christianity? I thought you liked democracy, and guess what? The majority of the US is Christian, yet for some stupid reason, you still complain. You should be sucking it up to avoid looking like a hypocrite.

the theorcratic government etc is better eh... lets look at talibans, iran etc...

Let's look at the Roman, byzantine, saracen government. Were you saying something about empty rhetoric a few paragraphs ago?

you *****, make a wild guess why i even stated that. Hint: middle east has only sand to sell. And make a wild guess what form of governance resulted in the above quote. hint: theocracy

I said no such thing. And Saudi Arabia is a theocracy? Last time I checked it was a kingdom run by a PRINCE, not a religious leader.

[bizzt]

Except for Saudi Arabia, Canada is the next leading Oil Reserve in the World

indeed... is that suppose to invalidate my statement that oil production is centered in middle east.

*Stop*
Not really but the only reason that Oil Production is in the Middle East is because that is the only Export they have tons of. There are not too many other ones in the Middle East. However In Canada for Example OIL is not the only export...
Just food for thought and just something I learned...

*Resume*

[ochotseat]

ermm killing here is the default position as it is a request of terri schiavo not to be kept artificially alive.

In anycase this whole thing is an issue because of the christian adherence to their dogmatic teaching that suicide is wrong.

Why is suicide even wrong?

Also to dan, they have been keeping her alive for more than 10 years, (isnt that long enough) while inumerable medical examinations has conclusively established that terry schiavo is brain dead. All the reason to pull the plug.

Suicide is immoral and illegal (at least in the states), because life is precious and sanctioning it is telling children it's okay to do the most drastic thing to take the easy way out. People who commit suicide go to hell. Only Oregon has legal physician assisted suicide, and that may be overturned soon. By allowing Terri Schiavo to die, doctors violated God's law and their medical oaths. There's a reason why God invented medical instruments and procedures---only he has the authority to send us to heaven or hell. Thank God for President Bush and Governor Bush for trying to give a sick woman the same rights that the most vicious criminals are offered.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

for god sake, stop twisting my point so you have something to rebutt to. My point is that its a chrstian issue, you lose on this one so zip it.

Wow, they used to skirt around the issue by saying, "Oh, it's a CATHOLIC issue." Now, it's a Christian issue. I think it's a patient's issue. If you end up on a feeding tube, unable to speak, and your husband has two children with some lady, and wants you dead for, who knows, personal satisfaction, do you want your right to live held up?

Someone inform me what worldview nameless is working from? Maybe nameless himself.

Quote:

They're not just interpreting laws, they're making them up, which is none of their business.

interesting, provide a link? Anyway you're using empty rhetorics again, please show that in this case the judiciary system has not abided by its protocol. In other words zip it as they did. you lose on this one.

You need a link to something so obvious...wow....