Abortion Debate

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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RickD
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Re: Abortion Debate

#76

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:00 am

Nils wrote:
I accept that there is a human being from conception. You say that killing the human being right after conception is “simply wrong”. That is what I listed as argument 5 in my post #57:
"5. It IS wrong to abort young fetuses!
But this is not an argument, only an ungrounded statement."
Nils,

I don't know how else to say it.

Every human being has the right to life. If someone kills an unborn human being, that person is denied the right to live.

Again, my reasoning is that all persons, from the moment of conception, through their entire life, have the right to live.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Abortion Debate

#77

Post by Kenny » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:42 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:06 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:08 pm
You know this thread is about abortion, right?
Yes I know what the thread is about. But while discussing abortion, you mentioned actions that are justified, vs actions that are right; as if there were a difference. When I asked you what the difference is, you didn't give a straight answer. Right now all I'm looking for is an answer the my question, then perhaps I can understand the reasoning behind some of the responses you give.
You don't think there is a difference between an act that is justified and one that is right?
I don't see a difference; if you do please explain.
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Re: Abortion Debate

#78

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:28 am

Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:42 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:06 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:08 pm
You know this thread is about abortion, right?
Yes I know what the thread is about. But while discussing abortion, you mentioned actions that are justified, vs actions that are right; as if there were a difference. When I asked you what the difference is, you didn't give a straight answer. Right now all I'm looking for is an answer the my question, then perhaps I can understand the reasoning behind some of the responses you give.
You don't think there is a difference between an act that is justified and one that is right?
I don't see a difference; if you do please explain.
Paul,

I'm with Kenny on this one. Theologically or otherwise, in the context of this discussion, I don't see a difference between justified and right.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Abortion Debate

#79

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:52 am

Thou shall not steal.
Stealing is WRONG.
Steal food to feed your kids - justified but still wrong.

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Re: Abortion Debate

#80

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:53 am

In regards to taking a life:

Taking a life is wrong.
Taking a life to save another, justified but still taking a life, hence wrong.


Now, IF justification = right, then how does one decide WHAT is justifiable?

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Re: Abortion Debate

#81

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:00 pm

Pro-choicers believe that it is a question of choice, that choice is what is paramount in this discussion. That it is a women's body and she can CHOOSE to do anything she wants with it so, she is JUSTIFIED in taking a life is she simply chooses to do so.

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Re: Abortion Debate

#82

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:53 am
In regards to taking a life:

Taking a life is wrong.
Taking a life to save another, justified but still taking a life, hence wrong.


Now, IF justification = right, then how does one decide WHAT is justifiable?
Why do you think that taking a life is necessarily wrong? Murder is wrong. Killing someone in self defense, or to save another, isn't wrong.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Abortion Debate

#83

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:04 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:00 pm
Pro-choicers believe that it is a question of choice, that choice is what is paramount in this discussion. That it is a women's body and she can CHOOSE to do anything she wants with it so, she is JUSTIFIED in taking a life is she simply chooses to do so.
She's not justified, and she's wrong. There's no justification for killing an innocent unborn baby, except in the possible instance of saving the mother's life. And even in that case, doctors try to save both lives.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Abortion Debate

#84

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pm

RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:53 am
In regards to taking a life:

Taking a life is wrong.
Taking a life to save another, justified but still taking a life, hence wrong.


Now, IF justification = right, then how does one decide WHAT is justifiable?
Why do you think that taking a life is necessarily wrong? Murder is wrong. Killing someone in self defense, or to save another, isn't wrong.
So right and wrong are not objective?

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Re: Abortion Debate

#85

Post by Kenny » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:09 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:52 am
Thou shall not steal.
Stealing is WRONG.
Steal food to feed your kids - justified but still wrong.
From your perspective, if you do wrong, but it is justified, is it still a sin? Example; if you lie to a criminal in order to save the life of an innocent person; are you still sinning? Or is this one of those "white lies" that gets the ghetto pass.

Ken
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Re: Abortion Debate

#86

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:08 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:53 am
In regards to taking a life:

Taking a life is wrong.
Taking a life to save another, justified but still taking a life, hence wrong.


Now, IF justification = right, then how does one decide WHAT is justifiable?
Why do you think that taking a life is necessarily wrong? Murder is wrong. Killing someone in self defense, or to save another, isn't wrong.
So right and wrong are not objective?
Of course they are. Morality is objective. Murder is objectively wrong. Killing someone in self defense is not objectively wrong.

Stealing is wrong. Stealing to feed a starving family is still wrong. I'm not saying that I wouldn't steal to feed my family if they were starving. But it would still be wrong. I'd have to decide if it would be more wrong, in my mind, to steal food, or let my family starve.

Remember, the Bible says it's wrong to murder. Not all killing is murder. And on the topic of abortion, while not "legally" murder, I believe it is murder in a biblical sense of killing an innocent life, without justification.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Abortion Debate

#87

Post by Nils » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:36 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:46 pm
Nils wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:43 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Now you might debate or disagree with 8 weeks. I've just quoted an expert in the field. But, I'm wondering. Did you come to your 22 week conclusion by consistently applying your belief that personhood is had as an attribute of our brain? Did you come to the conclusion that 22 weeks is the time a person exists based upon your study, understanding and knowledge of brain development?
It seems that you understand my materialistic world view (that’s good) but you don’t think that my reasoning that leads to the 22 week limit is consistent with my world view. I don’t understand why but perhaps that isn’t important. My reasoning IS based on the mental properties of the fetus. In the article with I referred to in the thread about N.Y. adopts law and again in post #30 above there is an overview of current research about the fetus’ cognitive capabilities. It seems to be a consensus that capabilities as feeling pain and being conscious occurs somewhere between week 22 and week 31. I choose the lower figure to be on the safe side. (Only neural activity isn’t enough, compare with Galvani’s experiments on frogs. The leg moved even when the frog was dead).

The answer to your two concluding questions is Yes.

Nils
I'm most certain it is not the case that feeling pain (which we both agree requires consciousness) doesn't occur earlier than 22 weeks, let alone 31 weeks. There are many previous staff in the abortion industry, now pro-life, who'll say the unborn child most definitely does recoil away from, for example, during a suction abortion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5THDmys8z30). This method is performed within the first trimester.
Even insects and snails for instance recoil away from you if you touch them, so what does recoiling prove? Do they feel anything that is similar to human pain?

I'd encourage you to watch Abby Johnson's movie recently released.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBLWpKbC3ww
Why should I watch it (even if I could)? Does it say more about reasons not to kill young fetuses than Dr. Mike Adams and Ben Shapiro who only say “It IS wrong” and nothing more?
Nils

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Re: Abortion Debate

#88

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:21 am

Even Nils would recoil away if you touch him/her, so what does that prove? Does he/she feel anything that is similar to human pain?

Your statements tell me much Nils.

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Abortion Debate

#89

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:38 am

Kenny wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:09 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:52 am
Thou shall not steal.
Stealing is WRONG.
Steal food to feed your kids - justified but still wrong.
From your perspective, if you do wrong, but it is justified, is it still a sin? Example; if you lie to a criminal in order to save the life of an innocent person; are you still sinning? Or is this one of those "white lies" that gets the ghetto pass.

Ken
Sure, since for me a sin is any act or thought that we either KNOW is wrong or that is "bad" for us as individuals and the group.
Again, it can be justified, as in your example, but that doesn't make it right.


This is, of course, IF one believes in objective right and wrong.

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Re: Abortion Debate

#90

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:38 am

RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:08 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pm
RickD wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:53 am
In regards to taking a life:

Taking a life is wrong.
Taking a life to save another, justified but still taking a life, hence wrong.


Now, IF justification = right, then how does one decide WHAT is justifiable?
Why do you think that taking a life is necessarily wrong? Murder is wrong. Killing someone in self defense, or to save another, isn't wrong.
So right and wrong are not objective?
Of course they are. Morality is objective. Murder is objectively wrong. Killing someone in self defense is not objectively wrong.

Stealing is wrong. Stealing to feed a starving family is still wrong. I'm not saying that I wouldn't steal to feed my family if they were starving. But it would still be wrong. I'd have to decide if it would be more wrong, in my mind, to steal food, or let my family starve.

Remember, the Bible says it's wrong to murder. Not all killing is murder. And on the topic of abortion, while not "legally" murder, I believe it is murder in a biblical sense of killing an innocent life, without justification.
If right an wrong are OBJECTIVE, then how can taking a life be BOTH right and wrong?

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