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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:22 pm
by Philip
Nils: If it is clear, why not explain why. “Murder” is defined as unlawful killing. If abortion is murder only if God exists there has to be a godly law saying that it is prohibited. As I am talking about young fetuses, less than about 20 weeks, there has to be a law saying that it is unlawful to kill fetuses younger than 20 weeks. Please, describe that law.
Nils, I would suggest you stick to what you know - because (and I don't say this to be rude) - you show massive ignorance as to the totality of what the Bible teaches about the sanctity of human life. I doubt seriously you know much about Scripture - other than Googling around a bit. First place, you have to understand that the Bible says God created man in HIS image. We are the reflection of the Creator. Outside of war or self defense, only He has the right to take away human life. Anyone who any in-depth understandings about Scripture also knows that its meanings and contexts become far more clear over the totality of comparing Scriptures, its contexts, and applying a consistent hermeneutic to it's interpretation. It doesn't have to literally make a declarative statement when it is made clear over many passages. For instance, the Bible never specifically says God is a Trinity, but a study across the Bible reveals this to be true. Scripture builds upon itself for ever-deeper understandings. No one who has carefully studied it would conclude that abortion is okay - because God doesn't distinguish a lessor value for an unborn human vs. one after birth.
Nils: Also, if there only is a godly law, how can pro-lifers claim that there should be a secular law prohibiting atheists to abort?
Because Christians desire God-honoring laws on our books - especially when it comes to the sanctity of human life! For the sincere Christian, God's instructions always are to be followed over human laws. Abortion equates an unborn human with the status of an animal. If there is no God, then whatever supposedly correct or moral laws would merely be individual opinion - with one fellow saying something is good, the other saying it's bad. But who would have THE definitive correct assertion - as they don't or can't agree? Who says? You? Me? Some majority or minority of people? Why is it okay to kill an animal to eat, but not to kill a man to do so? Who says? Individual or collective societal opinions? And such opinions are only enforceable per whatever numbers of people on whatever side of sensibility of an issue - much like YOUR perceived standard of acceptability per your nations laws. No God - then morality is merely subjective opinion! It would be like blind Darwinian outcomes - meaning there is NO good or bad, but merely biological outcomes and events - with opinions as to whatever is preferred, differing from person to person.

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:39 pm
by RickD
Nils: Also, if there only is a godly law, how can pro-lifers claim that there should be a secular law prohibiting atheists to abort?
For the same reason that there should be secular laws against murder, and rape.

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am
by PaulSacramento
I find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.
Nils
You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:52 am
by Stu
Nils, the Bible quite clearly states that if a baby in the womb is killed then it is a life for a life.
Exodus 21:22-23
If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely*a but no fatality* results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges.b 23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:24 am
by Nils
Philip wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:22 pm
Nils: If it is clear, why not explain why. “Murder” is defined as unlawful killing. If abortion is murder only if God exists there has to be a godly law saying that it is prohibited. As I am talking about young fetuses, less than about 20 weeks, there has to be a law saying that it is unlawful to kill fetuses younger than 20 weeks. Please, describe that law.
Nils, I would suggest you stick to what you know - because (and I don't say this to be rude) - you show massive ignorance as to the totality of what the Bible teaches about the sanctity of human life. I doubt seriously you know much about Scripture - other than Googling around a bit.
I certainly know more about the Bible than from just Googling but I’m far from being a Bible expert. However that doesn’t matter. I don’t propose anything here about Christianity, I ask questions.
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.

First place, you have to understand that the Bible says God created man in HIS image. We are the reflection of the Creator. Outside of war or self defense, only He has the right to take away human life. Anyone who any in-depth understandings about Scripture also knows that its meanings and contexts become far more clear over the totality of comparing Scriptures, its contexts, and applying a consistent hermeneutic to it's interpretation. It doesn't have to literally make a declarative statement when it is made clear over many passages. For instance, the Bible never specifically says God is a Trinity, but a study across the Bible reveals this to be true. Scripture builds upon itself for ever-deeper understandings. No one who has carefully studied it would conclude that abortion is okay - because God doesn't distinguish a lessor value for an unborn human vs. one after birth.
Now, the question is whether the Bible separates the young and the old fetus. The examples I have seen don’t indicate that the authors of the Bible thought much about the young fetus.
If were the case that all Christians had the same opinion I could accept you argument from authority but there are Christians that aren’t against abortion. Besides I don’t think that the abortion figures are considerable lower in countries with a high proportion Christians compared to countries with a low proportion. That indicates that what you say isn’t evident.
Nils: Also, if there only is a godly law, how can pro-lifers claim that there should be a secular law prohibiting atheists to abort?
Because Christians desire God-honoring laws on our books - especially when it comes to the sanctity of human life! For the sincere Christian, God's instructions always are to be followed over human laws. Abortion equates an unborn human with the status of an animal.
I have no problems with Christians not having abortions, what I question is that Christians for religious reasons try to impose religious laws on everyone. Is that constitutional in US? (I admit that it should be okay for secular reasons).

If there is no God, then whatever supposedly correct or moral laws would merely be individual opinion - with one fellow saying something is good, the other saying it's bad. But who would have THE definitive correct assertion - as they don't or can't agree? Who says? You? Me? Some majority or minority of people? Why is it okay to kill an animal to eat, but not to kill a man to do so? Who says? Individual or collective societal opinions? And such opinions are only enforceable per whatever numbers of people on whatever side of sensibility of an issue - much like YOUR perceived standard of acceptability per your nations laws. No God - then morality is merely subjective opinion! It would be like blind Darwinian outcomes - meaning there is NO good or bad, but merely biological outcomes and events - with opinions as to whatever is preferred, differing from person to person.
This sounds as Dostoyevsky's dictum that when God is dead everything is permitted. This is a complete misunderstanding. In any society, religious or not, there are moral rules and in any advanced society there a laws governing what is permitted or not. You certainly know that. I can argue at length and I have done it earlier on this forum. If you want to discuss that, let’s do that in another thread.
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:19 am
by Stu
Nils wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:24 am
I certainly know more about the Bible than from just Googling but I’m far from being a Bible expert. However that doesn’t matter. I don’t propose anything here about Christianity, I ask questions.
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
WTF!!! Did I read that right. Yes I did it seems. Sanctity of life, yeah right.

You can't be serious man. So parents find out they are having a girl but they wanted a boy. Ahhh whatever snip it's little spinal cord and discard it, we can try again for a boy! Yipee ain't life grand!

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:29 am
by Philip
And Nils seems not to distinguish between whatever people merely calling themselves Christians might think and what the Bible actually teaches. It's irrelevant what mere opinion claims or how anyone might believe differently - least as far as what the Bible teaches in contrast.

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:02 am
by Kurieuo
I'm sure those who consider themselves "progressives" would have also advocated choice of European Americans so-far-as owning African black slaves is concerned. Of course, if they're not considered persons based upon some subjective metaphysical (even "soulish") distinction, then no amount of proving they're biologically human life and so deserving of certain inalienable human rights (i.e., to life) will matter.

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
by PaulSacramento
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:23 pm
by Nils
RickD wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:39 pm
Nils: Also, if there only is a godly law, how can pro-lifers claim that there should be a secular law prohibiting atheists to abort?
For the same reason that there should be secular laws against murder, and rape.
I’m not sure you understood my question. Assume the following case: In a state the action A is permitted by law. Some persons say that A is against there religion. Therefore they want to create law for all persons, i.e. they want make restrictions for atheist motivated only by religion. Is that okay?
Any comments on my post #85 including the last paragraph?
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pm
by Nils
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am
I find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.
Nils
You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:36 pm
by Nils
Stu wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:52 am
Nils, the Bible quite clearly states that if a baby in the womb is killed then it is a life for a life.
Exodus 21:22-23
If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely*a but no fatality* results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges.b 23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,
“Give birth” indicates that this is about old fetuses. And, more important, this is about what a person should pay if he hurt another person’s fetus. That fetus can of course be very valuable to the father and mother. But what we discuss here is cases where the parents don’t want keeping the (young) fetus.
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:37 pm
by Nils
Stu wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:19 am
Nils wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:24 am
I certainly know more about the Bible than from just Googling but I’m far from being a Bible expert. However that doesn’t matter. I don’t propose anything here about Christianity, I ask questions.
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
WTF!!! Did I read that right. Yes I did it seems. Sanctity of life, yeah right.

You can't be serious man. So parents find out they are having a girl but they wanted a boy. Ahhh whatever snip it's little spinal cord and discard it, we can try again for a boy! Yipee ain't life grand!
Didn’t you understand that I all the time have been arguing the right to do abortions on young fetuses?
I argue for the sanctity of life but with some exceptions. Probably also you have some exceptions.
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:39 pm
by Nils
Philip wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:29 am
And Nils seems not to distinguish between whatever people merely calling themselves Christians might think and what the Bible actually teaches. It's irrelevant what mere opinion claims or how anyone might believe differently - least as far as what the Bible teaches in contrast.
In post #91 you tell me: “you show massive ignorance as to the totality of what the Bible teaches…” . Now you want me to distinguish between different Christians using my knowledge of the Bible!

(Besides, Philip, do you prefer that we talk indirectly? If you prefer that I can also write about you, not directly to you)
Nils

Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
by Nils
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)
Nils