N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
Nils
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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#106

Post by Nils » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:47 pm

Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already knew that, or … ?)
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#107

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:06 pm

NIls: If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
FALSE! There ARE instructions which categorically cover all deliberate killing that isn't done in war or defensively, as well as punishment noted for taking the life of an unborn child - there is no need to distinguish between the development level of whatever unborn child because it doesn't do so. And that ALL life is God-given and sacred re-enforces this. So you are ignorant as to what the Bible teaches on this. It takes study and not just Googling specific terms in a search box! That you don't believe what the Bible teaches is unsurprising. As ultimately, you only answer to one person: Nils. Christians have a higher Authority beyond themselves that have submitted to. And unless you submit to God, it is highly unlikely you would ever agree with the Christian view of the issue.

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#108

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:51 am

Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am
I find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.
Nils
You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
Nils
The unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.
It is an objective blanket statement.

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#109

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 am

Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)
Nils
I admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#110

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:57 am

I have a very hard time understanding moral subjectiveness...I really do.
I mean, do people that believe this not understand what it can lead to?
Do they not understand that there MUST be an objective good and bod for their to be ANY subjective view of good and bad ??

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#111

Post by Philip » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:32 am

Paul: I have a very hard time understanding moral subjectiveness...I really do.
I mean, do people that believe this not understand what it can lead to?
Do they not understand that there MUST be an objective good and bod for their to be ANY subjective view of good and bad ??
If a person believes there is no God / no ultimate authority that defines right and wrong, then it is understandable that all they can ever assert about any topic is mere personal opinion or a morality built upon subjectiveness and whatever collitions and majorities that have the power to enforce their view as to how things should go. In that view, right or wrong is whatever anyone decides it should be - in other words, it becomes a Darwinian battle of ideas, in which the powerful elements in society get their way. So in that way, right or wrong is determined by the success or not of enforcing whatever view - and that view can be anything whatever a majority desires it to be.

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#112

Post by Nils » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm

Philip wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:06 pm
NIls: If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
FALSE! There ARE instructions which categorically cover all deliberate killing that isn't done in war or defensively, as well as punishment noted for taking the life of an unborn child - there is no need to distinguish between the development level of whatever unborn child because it doesn't do so. And that ALL life is God-given and sacred re-enforces this. So you are ignorant as to what the Bible teaches on this. It takes study and not just Googling specific terms in a search box! That you don't believe what the Bible teaches is unsurprising. As ultimately, you only answer to one person: Nils. Christians have a higher Authority beyond themselves that have submitted to. And unless you submit to God, it is highly unlikely you would ever agree with the Christian view of the issue.
Philip, didn't you notice the conditional "if" in the start of the sentence? And to be clear, I didn't talk of any law that was only about young fetuses. I talked about some law about adults that in some way explicitely mentions young fetuses.

Note, again, I don't argue about the contents of the Bible, I only asks for evidence for your view.
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#113

Post by Nils » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:54 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:51 am
Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am
I find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.
Nils
You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
Nils
The unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.
It is an objective blanket statement.
Paul, what you say is correct but I don't talk about "unjustified" or "unlawful" taking of life!
Generally I talk about justified and lawful killing of young fetuses. In the conversation above I was asking for evidence that there is a godly law making killing of young fetuses unlawful.
I hope this is clear now.
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#114

Post by Nils » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 am
Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)
Nils
I admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#115

Post by Nils » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:02 pm

Nils wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 am
Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)
Nils
I admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils

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Philip
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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#116

Post by Philip » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pm

You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
Again, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others. BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#117

Post by Nils » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:55 am

Philip wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pm
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
Again, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others.
And how do I know how to interpret the Bible without asking a Christian, and which Christian should be trusted?


BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!
You missed my point. Paul said that subjectivity doesn't always get good results. I answered that objectivity doesn't get that either, see #114. And, of cource, there have been lot of Christians doing good things.
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#118

Post by Nils » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:46 am

Nils wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:55 am
Philip wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pm
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
Again, it is irrelevant what certain people calling themselves Christians did or thought about slavery. What matters is what the Bible teaches about it, and how it instructs we are to treat others.
And how do I know how to interpret the Bible without asking a Christian, and which Christian should be trusted?


BTW, servitude in ancient Israel was NOT slavery as practiced in the Americas - it was only permitted via a contractual agreement and legal obligations on both sides. Also, the anti-slavery movement to ban American slavery was most prominently fought and led by Christians! And it was a major impetus for those in the North to see that issue as a major moral impetus for the Civil war continuing until victory / emancipation!
You missed my point. Paul said that subjectivity doesn't always get good results. I answered that objectivity doesn't get that either, see #114. And, of course, there have been lot of Christians doing good things.
Nils

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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#119

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:46 am

Nils wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:54 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:51 am
Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:32 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:36 am
I find no indication of a godly law about young fetuses.
Nils
You find no indication in the bible that the unlawful taking of a life is wrong?
If there is no godly law about killing young fetuses it isn’t unlawful to take there lives. So your question seems meaningless.
Nils
The unjustified taking of life is prohibited in the 10 commandments - Thou shall not murder.
It is an objective blanket statement.
Paul, what you say is correct but I don't talk about "unjustified" or "unlawful" taking of life!
Generally I talk about justified and lawful killing of young fetuses. In the conversation above I was asking for evidence that there is a godly law making killing of young fetuses unlawful.
I hope this is clear now.
Nils
A fetus is alive, if it weren't it would need to be terminated.

PaulSacramento
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Re: N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

#120

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:47 am

Nils wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:54 am
Nils wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:45 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 am
I too claims the sanctity of life but with one exception, the parents having the right to kill their own young fetus.
How did they get this "right"?
In the same way as we all get “rights” in democratic societies, by laws that are based on the public opinion. (But you already know that, or … ?)
Nils
I admire your willingness to hold on to your moral subjectiveness, you probably would have felt at home during the times of slavery when people had THE RIGHT to kill slaves, a right given by a democratic society and based on public opinion.
You certainly also know that slavery was permitted and even approved by Christian churches long before there were any modern democratic societies.
Nils
There is SOME debate as to what TYPE of slavery, regardless, that isn't relevant.

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