The truth about Abortion

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#16

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:45 pm

I agree Philip, me and a Christian girl were talking about this-it's not explicit but it's heavily implied that there's an age of accountability.

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:12 am

LittleHamster wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:37 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:16 am
LittleHamster wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:12 am
Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.
Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? Relax, I know you're not really calling God a murderer but it seems there are exceptions !

You could call this a religious issue. i.e., where God's will may differ depending on the circumstance. How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should NOT get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation and only cause further misery and suffering for future generations? (just like in the time of the great flood)




Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will :-)
Why did God flood that area?
The answer to that was going to be one of the points of my argument.
So what is the answer?
Why did God "send" the flood?

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#18

Post by LittleHamster » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:08 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:12 am
LittleHamster wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:37 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:16 am
LittleHamster wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:12 am
Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.
Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? Relax, I know you're not really calling God a murderer but it seems there are exceptions !

You could call this a religious issue. i.e., where God's will may differ depending on the circumstance. How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should NOT get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation and only cause further misery and suffering for future generations? (just like in the time of the great flood)




Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will :-)
Why did God flood that area?
The answer to that was going to be one of the points of my argument.
So what is the answer?
Why did God "send" the flood?
I forgot what I was arguing about :shock:. But let's continue anyway...

God saw the wickedness of Humanity (https://www.gotquestions.org/Noah-flood.html) and even the "weak or unhealthy (babies, children, women, and the disabled) would have been immediately put in harm’s way by the evil actions of others".

Genesis 6:6 tells us that “the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.” - Did God screw up ??? but "The Lord’s “regret” is unlike ours. Creating mankind in the image of God was not a “mistake” on the part of the Lord. The Hebrew word 'nahem' can also be translated “grieved.” The depraved actions of mankind grieved God in His most holy heart."

"God responded to man’s sin in a holy and righteous manner, but also in a way that salvaged mankind. “So the LORD said, ‘I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.’ But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD” (Genesis 6:7–8)"


If we translate that into some kind of 'Godly' equivalent in today's world then, the terminating of a pregnancy becomes justifiable in cases where we have two extremely corrupt people coming together in an attempt to have a child. Examples would be - (i) militant people in isolated communities, (ii) redneck-inbred-hillbillies stuck in the mountains somewhere or (iii) whole countries where the people a born and bread in a way that they are hell-bent on killing their neighbors.

Now, if God can terminate pregnancies for his reason, does that mean we are also justified in terminating pregnancies for that same reason too?. Are both God and us murderers or are we both justified ?
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#19

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:26 pm

How did you go from: God judging mankind for sin and pouring out his righteous wrath upon such...

To: God terminating pregnancies...

???

Here's a better thought perhaps, maybe we should finish the job and wipe ourselves from the earth. Let it heal, let the animals and nature have it back. Who would agree with that? y:-?
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#20

Post by LittleHamster » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:28 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:26 pm
How did you go from: God judging mankind for sin and pouring out his righteous wrath upon such...

To: God terminating pregnancies...

???
lol. I lost track for a bit. But, I think my argument was along the lines of this question i.e., "is there any justification for terminating pregnancies ?" and so if God can do it for a reason, then, can we do it for the same reason or some other reason?
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#21

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:10 pm

LittleHamster wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:28 pm
Kurieuo wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:26 pm
How did you go from: God judging mankind for sin and pouring out his righteous wrath upon such...

To: God terminating pregnancies...

???
lol. I lost track for a bit. But, I think my argument was along the lines of this question i.e., "is there any justification for terminating pregnancies ?" and so if God can do it for a reason, then, can we do it for the same reason or some other reason?
Is there a reason, like for example, saving the life of the mother results in losing the life of the baby? I note you say "terminating pregnancies", so perhaps the unborn child can be birthed prematurely or delivered via c-section (terminating the pregnancy) and then given full treatment to save its life while also ensuring the safety of the mother. The objective in "terminating a pergnancy" for most however is to ensure the unborn child becomes a corpse.

Here's something that will enable you to logically work out your answers. The premise is that a baby in the womb is human life (biologically it is so), and therefore the unborn have the same intrinsic value as any other human being. So then, substitute in a newly born baby or child into any scenario -- apply your question to a born child to work out your answers for an unborn child.
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#22

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:52 am

If we translate that into some kind of 'Godly' equivalent in today's world then, the terminating of a pregnancy becomes justifiable in cases where we have two extremely corrupt people coming together in an attempt to have a child. Examples would be - (i) militant people in isolated communities, (ii) redneck-inbred-hillbillies stuck in the mountains somewhere or (iii) whole countries where the people a born and bread in a way that they are hell-bent on killing their neighbors.

Now, if God can terminate pregnancies for his reason, does that mean we are also justified in terminating pregnancies for that same reason too?. Are both God and us murderers or are we both justified ?
So, according to you, God punished a select group of people for exceptional wickedness and that, somehow, justifies abortion?

So, God, the ALL KNOWING creator of all the exists, giver AND sustainer of ALL existence, punishes corruption ( which is His right) and that, somehow, means that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans can do the same?

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#23

Post by LittleHamster » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:05 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:52 am
If we translate that into some kind of 'Godly' equivalent in today's world then, the terminating of a pregnancy becomes justifiable in cases where we have two extremely corrupt people coming together in an attempt to have a child. Examples would be - (i) militant people in isolated communities, (ii) redneck-inbred-hillbillies stuck in the mountains somewhere or (iii) whole countries where the people a born and bread in a way that they are hell-bent on killing their neighbors.

Now, if God can terminate pregnancies for his reason, does that mean we are also justified in terminating pregnancies for that same reason too?. Are both God and us murderers or are we both justified ?
So, according to you, God punished a select group of people for exceptional wickedness and that, somehow, justifies abortion?

So, God, the ALL KNOWING creator of all the exists, giver AND sustainer of ALL existence, punishes corruption ( which is His right) and that, somehow, means that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans can do the same?
It seems that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans are doing the same. The question is, are all these cases of abortion a case of murder or are there cases where it might be the will of God that a particular life should not continue on and be born, would that then be classed as a murder if an abortion was carried out ?
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#24

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:56 am

LittleHamster wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:52 am
If we translate that into some kind of 'Godly' equivalent in today's world then, the terminating of a pregnancy becomes justifiable in cases where we have two extremely corrupt people coming together in an attempt to have a child. Examples would be - (i) militant people in isolated communities, (ii) redneck-inbred-hillbillies stuck in the mountains somewhere or (iii) whole countries where the people a born and bread in a way that they are hell-bent on killing their neighbors.

Now, if God can terminate pregnancies for his reason, does that mean we are also justified in terminating pregnancies for that same reason too?. Are both God and us murderers or are we both justified ?
So, according to you, God punished a select group of people for exceptional wickedness and that, somehow, justifies abortion?

So, God, the ALL KNOWING creator of all the exists, giver AND sustainer of ALL existence, punishes corruption ( which is His right) and that, somehow, means that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans can do the same?
It seems that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans are doing the same. The question is, are all these cases of abortion a case of murder or are there cases where it might be the will of God that a particular life should not continue on and be born, would that then be classed as a murder if an abortion was carried out ?
Now, that is an interesting question.
As a person that does NOT believe that God will's an evil act ( or at least an not-as-good act) BUT that God DOES use evil/wrong acts for the greater good, I do NOT think that taking an unborn life is the will of God.

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#25

Post by LittleHamster » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:26 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:56 am
LittleHamster wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:05 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:52 am
If we translate that into some kind of 'Godly' equivalent in today's world then, the terminating of a pregnancy becomes justifiable in cases where we have two extremely corrupt people coming together in an attempt to have a child. Examples would be - (i) militant people in isolated communities, (ii) redneck-inbred-hillbillies stuck in the mountains somewhere or (iii) whole countries where the people a born and bread in a way that they are hell-bent on killing their neighbors.

Now, if God can terminate pregnancies for his reason, does that mean we are also justified in terminating pregnancies for that same reason too?. Are both God and us murderers or are we both justified ?
So, according to you, God punished a select group of people for exceptional wickedness and that, somehow, justifies abortion?

So, God, the ALL KNOWING creator of all the exists, giver AND sustainer of ALL existence, punishes corruption ( which is His right) and that, somehow, means that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans can do the same?
It seems that failed, flawed and not-very bright humans are doing the same. The question is, are all these cases of abortion a case of murder or are there cases where it might be the will of God that a particular life should not continue on and be born, would that then be classed as a murder if an abortion was carried out ?
Now, that is an interesting question.
As a person that does NOT believe that God will's an evil act ( or at least an not-as-good act) BUT that God DOES use evil/wrong acts for the greater good, I do NOT think that taking an unborn life is the will of God.

Thanks for all your views. Well, I've just about run out of thoughts/arguments/analogies. Most people agree that Abortion is not a great thing to have to do. Most people agree that it's good that their parents didn't abort them (except Philip for some reason :-)). Most Christians would say that Abortion is Murder. Most Christians would agree that God is pro life and he would rarely, if at all, 'will' the unborn to face an abortion. Mysticism says that humans are created, via conception, through god's "will-pleasure", i.e, it's his pleasure and will that a conception and birth take place and so we do his will (mostly unaware that we are doing his will).

The only logical reason, it seems, that people should want an abortion to take place, is if the mother is in danger of dying (which is rare) and maybe in cases of rape, incest->although Noah might disagree with incest ?

The only biblical reason, that I can see, that an abortion should take place, is if God wills it. But this, I believe, would be an unlikely occurrence. At the time of great flood, that was a specific case. Even if there are rare cases where God's will was against particular conceptions taking place, it is impossible for almost anyone to know what God's will is in those cases (unless you're a mystic, are in constant, direct contact with the Son/Holy Spirit and have lived in a cave for twenty years).

Is it an unforgivable sin ? If Abortion is murder, it's definitely not a mortal/unforgivable sin. Even murderer's have been known to repent.

Other's have come up with all sorts of analogies/reasons like "it's no different to switching off life support to a brain dead patient in a hospital" or "there are no brain waves in the fetus" or "the woman's right to choose should be respected".
None of these arguments take into account what God's will is. Aborting out of convenience - a woman's choice sounds a bit on the selfish side. Even aborting in poverty stricken areas might not be a valid reason.


Fear not people ! One day, a technology will exist that will enable a woman to take the embryo/fetus out from her womb and freeze it. That way someone else may benefit from her 'inconvenience' or the woman just might change her mind later on in life and decide to have the embryo re-grafted back into her womb and viola ! pregnancy continues back on-track :-)


Solved !
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#26

Post by melanie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:57 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:00 pm
I find it interesting that a woman can have the right to abort a child, as well as having the man pay child support and be more likely to get away with tricking a man into such things, like poking holes in condoms. As far as I'm aware the man has little to no say in such matters, but we're supposed to be about equality.
Why does no one mention this, but a few who usually get derided and called hateful or even tormented (think about it)?
This post speaks volumes....
A woman has the right to an abortion but also the right to seek child support....and be more likely to trick a man into such things like poking holes in condoms....
Really? How many women sit at home with condoms poking holes in them to trap men?
I mean really?
But not the first time I’ve heard this nonsense and if someone quips in with well it sometimes happens well so does spontaneous combustion but it’s not really a logical every day risk!
If two consenting adults have sex and it results in an unwanted pregnancy but men see it as a trap for child support and/or a malicious ploy for the pregnancy then that attitude in of itself is a very valid reasoning for termination.
Don’t have an abortion you condom pricking, money grabbing scarlet is exactly the kind of attitude that makes women feel alone and abandoned in this situation.
Men feel angry and unfairly compromised even though they were a willing participant at the time. The girl is left feeling like she holds the budren....don’t abort but deal with my wrath of anger and a feeling of entrapment. I may or may not pay child support but you’ve trapped me with your wanton ways.
That is totally unfair and entirely common.
So perhaps instead of focusing on women as the issue a better solution would be addressing the scenario from a broader perspective and not the alienating and quite frankly misogynistic attitudes of men.

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#27

Post by RickD » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:55 am

Mel,

I've noticed that you finally outgrew your "Make me a Sammich Member" status!

Congratulations on finally becoming an Esteemed Senior Member!

It's just a nice way of saying that you're old!
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Re: The truth about Abortion

#28

Post by melanie » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:14 am

RickD wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:55 am
Mel,

I've noticed that you finally outgrew your "Make me a Sammich Member" status!

Congratulations on finally becoming an Esteemed Senior Member!

It's just a nice way of saying that you're old!
Oh haha in that case you ‘esteemed’ old bast*rds must be almost prehistoric 😁

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#29

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:36 am

melanie wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:57 am
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:00 pm
I find it interesting that a woman can have the right to abort a child, as well as having the man pay child support and be more likely to get away with tricking a man into such things, like poking holes in condoms. As far as I'm aware the man has little to no say in such matters, but we're supposed to be about equality.
Why does no one mention this, but a few who usually get derided and called hateful or even tormented (think about it)?
This post speaks volumes....
A woman has the right to an abortion but also the right to seek child support....and be more likely to trick a man into such things like poking holes in condoms....
Really? How many women sit at home with condoms poking holes in them to trap men?
I mean really?
But not the first time I’ve heard this nonsense and if someone quips in with well it sometimes happens well so does spontaneous combustion but it’s not really a logical every day risk!
If two consenting adults have sex and it results in an unwanted pregnancy but men see it as a trap for child support and/or a malicious ploy for the pregnancy then that attitude in of itself is a very valid reasoning for termination.
Don’t have an abortion you condom pricking, money grabbing scarlet is exactly the kind of attitude that makes women feel alone and abandoned in this situation.
Men feel angry and unfairly compromised even though they were a willing participant at the time. The girl is left feeling like she holds the budren....don’t abort but deal with my wrath of anger and a feeling of entrapment. I may or may not pay child support but you’ve trapped me with your wanton ways.
That is totally unfair and entirely common.
So perhaps instead of focusing on women as the issue a better solution would be addressing the scenario from a broader perspective and not the alienating and quite frankly misogynistic attitudes of men.
So it's nonsense that I post something that DOES happen quite a bit? Not by all for sure though. And yes it does take two to tango but it annoys me how men are still treated badly for speaking out against things that DO happen against them.
Right, I'm "misogynistic" because I frankly point out stuff I see. If women speak out against stuff men do then it's ok.
"condom pricking, money grabbing scarlet" where did I say that? Not all women are "money grabbing".

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Re: The truth about Abortion

#30

Post by LittleHamster » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:26 pm

The whole woman-man thing has gotten tricky. Tricky, tricky, trrrrrrricky. It boils down to being under the 'curse of the law'. Sex was God's given way for us to use for reproduction purposes only (and in-line with his will), but as we can see, people have turned sex into a pleasure movement, eg, having sex out of wedlock, needing a 'quick fix', etc... With that in mind, all sorts of issues arise, i.e., women inadvertently getting pregnant, men brains become firmly lodged between their legs and can't control themselves, rape, recreational drug use, sex-drugs-rock'n'roll. People can't control themselves, hatred sets in - divorce rates are at almost 50% :shock:. Sin-fest !!!

We could easily blame each other by cherry picking examples but that is not a solution eg. lots of men try and manipulate women into having sex and many women try to manipulate men to their advantage because of that - it's desires taking hold over reason :sad:

Both sexes carry some degree of responsibility, yet under the law, they are not entirely to blame (being a slave to sin). Let's thank God for His Grace - or else we would never get a chance to go home :D
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