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Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Facebook Discussion.


Post by FlawedIntellect » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:28 pm

Okay, so, I'm not exactly sure where to put this thread, but I've got a couple questions.

Would anyone be willing to offer a critique of a particular conversation that's going on on facebook, both for my responses and the responses of others? I have some screenshots that basically show bits of some of the actual comments, though for the rest I'll be copy-pasting what would be hidden under the "see more" thing. I'll also put up a link to the discussion. https://www.facebook.com/glenn.bak.5/po ... 8739439557

(By the way, my name is Peter, so a head's up there.)


Sherryl Arnett: Jesus never mentioned homosexuality at all. Look up "Red Letter Christians." A growing movement of people who adhere to Jesus teachings. His words are usually printed in "red letters" in the new testament. Rather than be side-tracked by the many divisive and red herring issues, they believe that being a Christian means to follow what Christ said ( as opposed to the teachings of every person in the Bible i.e. Paul, Moses etc).
3 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Peter Murray: @Sherryl: Um, didn't Paul basically teach much of the same stuff that Jesus did? He was an important figure for settling disputes and confronting lots of things that went wrong in churches of the day. Having an anti-Pauline stance is particularly dangerous, since Paul was the apostle who preached the most to the Gentiles, and was the one who wrote and spoke to reconcile the differences between Jew and Gentile to bring unity, as both were coming to serve and worship the same God. While a Jew himself in background, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles. (That means /our/ Apostle.)

Jesus /did/ define Marriage by quoting the book of Genesis, though, when asked about divorce.
(in Matthew 19:1-12.)

@Nancy: Jesus did have moments where he got pissed off, to the point of flipping over tables in the temple and releasing the animals that were being sold there. He also called out the Pharisees for seeing themselves as more righteous than others by virtue of their public displays and knowledge of the laws.

Also, to those who think that few mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament means that it's okay: Would you say the same about bestiality? Rape? Adultery? Incest?

@Ron: Romans 1:24-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 do make mentions of homosexuality. However, 1 Corinthians 6:11 points out that such sins can be forgiven, seeing as some of the believers in those times once lived such a life before they turned to Jesus for forgiveness.

I don't believe homosexuality or other subject matter to be "red herring" issues, and the divisiveness is more or less the result of a person's arbitrary treatment of scripture, cherry picking what they like and don't like. These "Red Letter Christians" sound like they're doing just that sort of cherry picking.

With regards to homosexuality, we've got two ridiculous extremes: The people who ignore John 3:16 and claim that God hates homosexuals. (False. He loves them.) And then we've got people who ignore that homosexuality is a sin, completely ignoring what's written in the book of Romans and the book of 1st Corinthians. The truth is: Homosexuality is identified as sin, even in the New Testament. However, that does NOT in ANY WAY mean that God somehow loves them any less. And that does NOT mean that he will not forgive them. The red herrings are the extremes, and how they serve to distract from the truth of the matter.

Jesus came to provide the only way to God and to help us mend our relationship with Him. He took our place, acting as a sacrifice, taking our due punishment upon himself so that we can be forgiven, regardless of what we've done.
2 hours ago · Like

Sherryl Arnett: Dear Peter, Why is it that you feel you must attack random people on fb and beat them over the head with your Bible? I was just answering a simple question with the truth. Question: "Did Jesus ever speak about homosexuality?" Answer: "NO." That is the fact. Anyone can easily find out exactly what Jesus taught and what he didn't, by getting a Bible that highlights Jesus words in red letters. As far as I know there is nothing inflammatory about Jesus words that should make you upset or threaten your faith. The very definition of Christian a "Christ-follower" As Christ followers, reading and following Christ teachings above those of mere men (the apostles were very flawed human men) makes sense. As does encouraging other people to read Jesus' words and follow his teachings also. Jesus said the bottom line was that we should love God 1st, and love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. Love - that is all. And...if I do have to cherry pick, then, yes, I will pick what Jesus taught over what anyone else says, no matter how hard they cherry pick to find scriptures that justify their hate and bigotry. There are far more scriptures in the Bible that speak of love. And finally, are you seriously equating two people who love each other and are committed in a same sex relationship to "bestiality? Rape? Adultery? Incest?" ??? The only thing missing from your list is pedophilia. But, perhaps that was simply an oversight?
30 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Peter Murray: Your entire post is little more than a personal attack and a blatant straw man fallacy.

You ignored the parts of scripture that I referenced (which you should read for yourself, by the way.), and you blatantly admit to cherry-picking Scripture, simply because it inconveniences you to actually hear what God has to say on homosexuality. Just because something doesn't come straight from Jesus's mouth, means it somehow didn't come from God? News flash, sister, 3 of the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, John) were written by Apostles, /after the death and resurrection of Jesus/. The Gospel of Luke was written by Luke, a doctor who was collecting the testimonies of eye-witnesses who witnessed the miracles Jesus performed and the things he did. While I'm not denying the imperfections of men that aren't Christ, that's not enough to just completely dismiss everything else that isn't in red letters. You know what else isn't in red letters? What Jesus did. Jesus's /actions/ are /just as/ important as his words.

Also, you'd have to go so far as to prove that the apostles were wrong to teach such things, using scripture as a guide.

And also, worth noting: By dismissing the validity of the teachings of the Apostles, you are denying much of what makes the core of Christianity, and you even have no reason to trust what they wrote, including the very red text that you trust in.

So what if Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality? God has spoken many ways, sometimes directly where everyone could hear Him, and other times through imperfect people known as prophets. Also, Paul was the one who brought the message of Jesus to us, the Gentiles. Paul was the means of which we were able to hear the words of Jesus in the first place, so that we could turn to God instead of our pagan idols.

On what basis do you have to reject Paul's teachings? How do his teachings contradict that of Jesus? Did not much of Paul's preaching simply consist of repeating what Jesus taught?

And how am I equating homosexuality with incest, bestiality, adultery, and so on, other than calling it a sexual sin, like scripture says?

What do I have to be afraid of by looking into Jesus's writings. Jesus called lies and deceit exactly what they were and didn't take kindly to those that were self-righteous.

And tell me, where does Scripture say that love justifies same sex relationships? Where did Jesus say that? When did Jesus say that same sex relationships were okay with him? Oh wait, he didn't.

And why are you protesting the matters of bestiality or incest or rape, of which Jesus also never uttered a word about?

As for pedophilia: While I don't recall it being mentioned in scripture, I do believe it to be a form of sexual immorality, for obvious reasons. (Relating to child health and development.)
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Re: Facebook Discussion.


Post by neo-x » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:24 am

Not exactly what you asked for but my humble opinion...Stop wasting your time! This will be pointless, believe me I have been there. If someone is going to follow the red letters only, then good luck to them.

That being said, you are right, biblically speaking.
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Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night


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Re: Facebook Discussion.


Post by RickD » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:16 am

For the record, I don't see how anyone can think Sarah Palin is hateful. The other three I can understand.
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Re: Facebook Discussion.


Post by PeteSinCA » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:27 am

Sherryl Arnett: Jesus never mentioned homosexuality at all. Look up "Red Letter Christians." A growing movement of people who adhere to Jesus teachings. His words are usually printed in "red letters" in the new testament. Rather than be side-tracked by the many divisive and red herring issues, they believe that being a Christian means to follow what Christ said ( as opposed to the teachings of every person in the Bible i.e. Paul, Moses etc).
For this sort of person, "Red Letter Christians," is a red herring, a pious-sound phony pretext to cover what they actually are doing, picking and choosing what they like "from" the Bible while ignoring the rest. The real authority in their minds is their mind. It would likely be a waste of time, but you could refer this lady to a couple of "Red-Letter" sections in the Gospels that are probably among her favorites, the "Sermon on the Mount" and the parable of "The Rich Man and Lazarus".

"Blessed are the peace makers ...", "Judge not ...", "Do unto others ...", what's not to like in the "Sermon on the Mount"? Well, Matthew 5:17-20:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus going after The Rich, what's not to like in the parable of "The Rich Man and Lazarus"? Luke 16:29-31:
But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must respond to them.’ Then the rich man said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He replied to him, ‘If they do not respond to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
So even the pious-sounding"Red Letter Christians," red herring is a Fail if one really does pay attention to what Jesus said. The Bible makes approaching it like a buffet table difficult to do coherently and without being self-contradictory.
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