10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Kurieuo
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#16

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:56 am

neo-x wrote:You are a strong supporter of pro-life. All I am asking is how do you see this problem solved? Population increase leads to the above mentioned problems. Consider me a devil's advocate if nothing else.
You've made this into an issue of "abortion" vs issues that you cite as being associated with "over-population". I believe both can be dealt with at the same time.

I don't get why abortion is seen as the solution to the issues that you cite as arising from over-population. The majority of which I believe are mistaken correlation, and certainly the issues you state have not been demonstrated as arising due to over-population. Many of those issues occur regardless of population. Normally, it is corrupt and poor governing of the people. Normally it is selfishness and greed.

And the expense of abortions, and the fact it is unsafe to women even in Western countries... why not even sterlisation which is much safer and doesn't result in the taking of human life? Or are human corpses the only solution.

Let me ask you, would you endorse China's one-child policy in India? Or even across the world? Morality aside, you've stated what you consider to be major issues. In one of Australia's ABC programs, Dan Savage who support population control said that he thinks abortion should be mandatory for about 30 years.

Morality aside, what is it you are logically endorsing here, and what are your own views?
Last edited by Kurieuo on Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#17

Post by Kurieuo » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:08 am

neo-x wrote:
Furthermore, I did propose an earlier solution. Kill those who are poor and cannot effectively contribute to society at large. Effectively eradicating such means you're dealing with the issue directly and eliminating "those issues". You will have less drug addicts, you will have less drunks, you will have less crime and social disorder. What are your thoughts?
Poor do contribute to the society, they just don't get rich from it, they are the labor force for the rich guy, without the poor there is no one rich. Drug addiction is rampant in elites, so is drinking. Crime and social disorder is everywhere, somewhere its more, at others less.
"Without the poor there is no one rich"? Did you seriously write that with a straight face. So let's keep the poor around so they can be exploited? Hey, now you also have an argument to increase population. More population = more labor force. More population = more rich. Drug addiction is rampant anyway, so is drinking, and crime and social order is everywhere... so it seems population control won't remove these issues then, eh?

Come on. I understand that the solution I presented of killing those who are poor and cannot effectively contribute to society is immoral. But it is a viable option to resolve the ills that you see as being correlated with overpopulation, no? Not everyone can go all moral, and certainly, those that need handouts and assistance are a drain on those who can take care of themselves. So what is wrong logically with the proposed solution?

If I accept your the correlation between the issues you believe arise due to overpopulation, then removing the poor and undesirables from society would remove such issues. It supports the most happiness for all, and will allows humanity at large to get back on track in a manageable and sustainable way. Entirely utilitarian ethics, but that is what we're really talking about here isn't it when we're talking "solutions"?
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#18

Post by neo-x » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:57 pm

You've made this into an issue of "abortion" vs issues that you cite as being associated with "over-population". I believe both can be dealt with at the same time.
This is what I would like you to expound upon.
I don't get why abortion is seen as the solution to the issues that you cite as arising from over-population.
Abortion is a partial preventive measure, there is no proper solution yet of over population.
The majority of which I believe are mistaken correlation, and certainly the issues you state have not been demonstrated as arising due to over-population. Many of those issues occur regardless of population. Normally, it is corrupt and poor governing of the people. Normally it is selfishness and greed.
I understand. My only question would be, would a rise in population have any affect on such issues?
And the expense of abortions, and the fact it is unsafe to women even in Western countries... why not even sterilization which is much safer and doesn't result in the taking of human life? Or are human corpses the only solution.
That is a good point.
Let me ask you, would you endorse China's one-child policy in India? Or even across the world? Morality aside, you've stated what you consider to be major issues. In one of Australia's ABC programs, Dan Savage who support population control said that he thinks abortion should be mandatory for about 30 years.

Morality aside, what is it you are logically endorsing here, and what are your own views?
Endorse? no, but I understand why they do it. Actually I am endorsing nothing, neither abortion nor anti-abortion. I wanted to get your views that is all. I personally think that an abortion should be performed only when there is no other way to save the mother. I normally think that people who don't want children should give them to people who don't have children. plenty of childless people in the world.

I have a feeling that you have taken me the wrong way, perhaps I have come across the wrong way. However, I think you may be just countering my points as if we were in a debate, which we are not. For example, you cite "Come on. I understand that the solution I presented of killing those who are poor and cannot effectively contribute to society is immoral. But it is a viable option to resolve the ills that you see as being correlated with overpopulation, no? Not everyone can go all moral, and certainly, those that need handouts and assistance are a drain on those who can take care of themselves. So what is wrong logically with the proposed solution?"

I think the above may be a fine way to debate a pro-choice, but effectively as far as I am concerned, you are preaching to the choir.
"Without the poor there is no one rich"? Did you seriously write that with a straight face. So let's keep the poor around so they can be exploited? Hey, now you also have an argument to increase population. More population = more labor force. More population = more rich. Drug addiction is rampant anyway, so is drinking, and crime and social order is everywhere... so it seems population control won't remove these issues then, eh?
The poor will always be around, that is a fact unless you have a utopia.

The thing is I can humor you with answers to what you are asking me. But that will just push it in the wrong light because you are probably mistaking my being devil's advocate to something like, we should kill people to reduce population, should be fine with me too if I somehow could endorse abortion on a mass scale (which I don't actually).

My main question is, overpopulation is a growing problem, the earth resources are getting depleted, major changes are needed if in the next 40 years this planet's population is going to be doubled. Abortion at the current rate prevents this population to grow at 1/6th of the rate. So while abortion is not the solution, it certainly is a very important factor. In fact there are people like Dan Savage who say that the population should be drastically controlled for the next 4 decades otherwise there will be more problems in the future. If we stop abortions, as you say, then the population rises even more. Going sterile is an option but should that be enforced or should it be a individual decision? If its the latter than we have a problem.

I can't find the reference but I was reading that in the next 400 years, the population of earth would be enough that it would be impossible to sustain on this planet, that means less food, less space. ultimately if by that time we have no means to colonize another planet, humanity will face a challenge of survival.

In countries like china, while enforced abortions show moral decay, without it, that country will just collapse in the long run. India and china make almost 1/3rd of the world's population in two countries. As I said, I realize that forced abortions are wrong, but I don't see what else they should do?

That is what I was asking you to explain since you do think they should stop abortions.

This should clear things up for you.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#19

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:30 am

Hi Neo, I'm actually still confused.

Can you please let me know your reasoning for why you believe abortion to be immoral? I think perhaps your answer to this question is where something in translation is being lost between us. Your reasoning may in fact be quite different from my own -- such that you are not feeling the weight of what I'm saying, and likewise I'm interpreting you as placing one foot in one camp, and your other foot in another camp.

For example, consider that I reject abortion because I believe it takes a human life that is valuable in virtue of its humanness. And I believe ALL human life is equal and intrinsically valuable. So the same reasons I believe it is logically wrong for a mother to kill their infant or 2 year old toddler (or say wrong to commit genocide against all poor people and those who don't effectively contribute to society), I see it as wrong to kill a baby in the womb.

Now you say you don't support abortion and believe it is immoral, and yet you appear to consider it as a possible solution to what you see as issues arising from over-population. Not that you would endorse it as a method, and yet you do entertain it as a solution but retreat when I propose what I consider to be just as equal a solution (since both born and unborn human life should have the same intrinsic human value) -- that solution being killing off the poor and those who don't positively benefit society are large .

Which says to me, that your reasoning for rejecting abortion or believing it to be immoral is perhaps different to my own.

So I'd be interested to know why you believe: "that an abortion should be performed only when there is no other way to save the mother?" What is wrong with the mother choosing to abort for say sex selection? Or for any other reason for that matter?
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#20

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:23 am

Kurieuo wrote:So I'd be interested to know why you believe: "that an abortion should be performed only when there is no other way to save the mother?" What is wrong with the mother choosing to abort for say sex selection? Or for any other reason for that matter?
I understand why neo can't answer your question, above. It is incredibly difficult and bares one's values. Sometimes we don't want to go there. I got the same reaction when I asked my wife's friends why aborting female fetuses is wrong. Certain immigrant communities here routinely abort female fetuses and feminist organisations have decried the practice. If abortion is moral & legal, what's the problem with getting rid of girl fetuses?

Anyway, soon we'll all have a better way to control population: euthanasia. The Belgian Parliament passed this week a law allowing for the euthanasia of terminally-ill children. Euthanasia of terminally-ill adults has already been legal in some European countries for 10+ years. The problem with these euthanasia laws is that they require the consent of the patient in most cases. This, unfortunately, makes the process cumbersome but is a necessary step towards more liberal laws. A few years down the road, the-powers-that-be will be better able to control health care costs by euthanising burdensome members of society: the sick for now, then the elderly who use up resources and produce nothing.

I support financially a Catholic pro-life organization. I'm not Catholic but they are the only ones doing anything pro-life around here,

http://www.cqv.qc.ca

...they have asked me to participate in letter-writing campaigns, pro-life demonstrations and to attend groups praying the Rosary. Nope...not for me! I have trouble believing any of these activities will change our direction. We are too far gone already. And I don't own rosary beads.

FL
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#21

Post by 1over137 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:55 am

I have seen that too. My friend shared a petition directed for the prince not to sign the coming law.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#22

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:54 am

1over137 wrote:I have seen that too. My friend shared a petition directed for the prince not to sign the coming law.
Prince? Is there a Prince in in Slovakia? does someone actually live in that castle?

FL y@};-
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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#23

Post by 1over137 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:55 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
1over137 wrote:I have seen that too. My friend shared a petition directed for the prince not to sign the coming law.
Prince? Is there a Prince in in Slovakia? does someone actually live in that castle?

FL y@};-
In Belgium. Or was it king?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: 10 Surprising Quotes From Abortion "Doctors"

#24

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:02 am

1over137 wrote:In Belgium. Or was it king?
King. King Philippe of Belgium.

FL y@};-
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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