Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

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Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#1

Post by neo-x » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:11 pm

I am posting this again as a mod decided to delete it without notifying me. I am told that the objection was the use of the word "penis" in a christian forum, and as hard it is to get to the story without the use of that particular word, I did manage to find a few articles which may suffice.

Two more babies stricken with herpes after ritual ultra-orthodox Jewish oral blood sucking circumcision in New York City
Image

Infant dies after contracting herpes during blood-sucking Jewish circumcision ritual at hospital

There are also a couple of youtube videos you can see if you google the subject, and hear what the Rabbi's have to say to defend this (non-biblical) ritual. It is infuriating to say the least. Children are dying and its disgusting that this allowed in the name of God and religion. I think many of you can see why this is a secret kind of ritual; its absolutely nuts. :shakehead:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:31 am

From what I understand, this ritual has no sexual overtones. It is just bizarre.

FL
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#3

Post by neo-x » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:34 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:From what I understand, this ritual has no sexual overtones. It is just bizarre.

FL
quite true.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#4

Post by Ivellious » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:50 pm

Might I ask why using the anatomically correct word for the male sex organ is considered taboo? The words for sex organs are not dirty or profane (frankly, the slang terms for them ought to be the discouraged ones). Maybe it was just how/where I was raised, but I find it rather silly that someone would find those words offensive or explicit in any way. I realize not everyone is comfortable talking about sex or anything related to it, but come on...your body is about as natural and normal as it gets, why should the proper name of any part of it be censored? I kind of feel like I'm back in elementary school...

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#5

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:46 pm

Ivellious wrote:Might I ask why using the anatomically correct word for the male sex organ is considered taboo? The words for sex organs are not dirty or profane (frankly, the slang terms for them ought to be the discouraged ones). Maybe it was just how/where I was raised, but I find it rather silly that someone would find those words offensive or explicit in any way. I realize not everyone is comfortable talking about sex or anything related to it, but come on...your body is about as natural and normal as it gets, why should the proper name of any part of it be censored? I kind of feel like I'm back in elementary school...
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#6

Post by RickD » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:04 pm

Guys,

Just to clear things up, the main reason why the thread was deleted, was because the YouTube video in the post had links with pictures of penises. Apparently, the pictures were on the side of the screen, so anybody viewing the video would see the pictures. I didn't see the pictures because I watched it on my iPhone, which doesn't show links. Frankly, if I saw those kinds of pictures, I would've deleted it too.
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#7

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:16 pm

To the OP, I don't see the ethical problem with the procedure itself. I do see an ethical problem with not taking all necessary health precautions, but I would say the same thing about a surgeon not washing his hands, for instance. Yes, the ritual is "bizarre," but that's just because it's not part of our normal culture. If we were OT Israelites, would we think it was "bizarre" to break a bird's neck, tear it almost in half by the wings, drain its blood, and burn the body? (see Lev. 1:14-17)

The fact that children are getting sick and dying should tell you something is wrong, but we need to be careful not to just declare the ritual itself unethical. The unethical part is practicing the ritual in an unsafe manner. If proper precautions are taken, then while I wouldn't want to put my kid through that, I don't think I see anything that would say that no one ought to.

edit:

*giggle*yousaidpenis*giggle*
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#8

Post by RickD » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Jac wrote:
The fact that children are getting sick and dying should tell you something is wrong, but we need to be careful not to just declare the ritual itself unethical. The unethical part is practicing the ritual in an unsafe manner. If proper precautions are taken, then while I wouldn't want to put my kid through that, I don't think I see anything that would say that no one ought to.
The procedure is vulgar, disgusting, perverted, and in this day and age, in this country, absolutely unethical. Get this picture in your mind Jac. The rabbi puts his mouth over the baby's penis and "sucks vigorously". Keep that picture in your mind for a little while, and then tell me it's not unethical.

There is no situation whatsoever, where a man puts his mouth over a child's penis, and "sucks vigorously", that is not unethical.
If we were OT Israelites, would we think it was "bizarre" to break a bird's neck, tear it almost in half by the wings, drain its blood, and burn the body? (see Lev. 1:14-17)
Breaking a bird's neck is bizarre. Vigorously sucking a baby boy's penis is not simply bizarre.
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#9

Post by Jac3510 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:22 pm

Meh, I just don't see what is intrinsically unethical about it. It is not a sexual practice. If it were, that would be unethical, but it isn't. It's bizarre. Unethical? I just don't see that. So other than the "ick" factor (which is entirely cultural and so irrelevant), would you like to tell me why you think it is unethical? On what do you base the claim?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#10

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:40 am

Because I think it's morally wrong for a man to vigorously suck a baby's penis, first of all. And second, the procedure isn't sanitary.

The "it's cultural so it's not wrong" factor doesn't fly with me. Perhaps you also would go along with the cultural custom of Bacha Bazi? Maybe you'd just say "Meh" and "ick" to that too.

There are things that I believe are wrong because they are wrong. A man vigorously sucking a baby boy's penis, definitely falls into that category. Whether or not it has any sexual meaning. And if sucking baby penises doesn't infuriate you in itself, surely men with herpes sucking on baby penises should elicit more than a "Meh".
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#11

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:31 am

These alleged Torah keeping sect is actually in violation of the Torah itself pertaining to blood...

Lev 17:14 "For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, 'You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off." NASB

The JPS reads " For as to the life of all flesh, the blood thereof is all one with the life thereof; therefore I said unto the children of Israel: Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh; for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof; whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

Therefore, this practice is considered a severe violation of Torah with dire consequences and add to that, the fact the great lengths taken to support such practice supporters use to justify it , demonstatres another violation of Torah - adding to God's word and a few others...


This should settle this issue and may this thread fade into oblivion...
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#12

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:26 am

RickD wrote:Because I think it's morally wrong for a man to vigorously suck a baby's penis, first of all. And second, the procedure isn't sanitary.

The "it's cultural so it's not wrong" factor doesn't fly with me. Perhaps you also would go along with the cultural custom of Bacha Bazi? Maybe you'd just say "Meh" and "ick" to that too.

There are things that I believe are wrong because they are wrong. A man vigorously sucking a baby boy's penis, definitely falls into that category. Whether or not it has any sexual meaning. And if sucking baby penises doesn't infuriate you in itself, surely men with herpes sucking on baby penises should elicit more than a "Meh".
I've already commented on the sanitation issue. That does have ethical ramifications. I'm talking about the ritual itself. If a man does not have herpes, what makes the act of a man sucking on a baby's penis unethical in and of itself? If there is no sexual connotation, then to what do you point that makes it wrong?

So you say, "It's wrong because it's wrong." But that doesn't fly. Nothing else is in that category. That's not what "objective morality" means. Murder is wrong. Why? We dont' say, "It's wrong because it's wrong." There are reasons murder is wrong, not the least of which is because it violates a persons' fundamental right to life. More than that, it is uncharitable in the highest degree possible. And why is it wrong to be uncharitable? Not because it "just is," but because the essence of goodness is charity. That which lacks charity lacks goodness, and since goodness is a real thing, to the degree something lacks goodness, it has been deprived of the essence of what it ought to be. Thus, it is objectively evil.

You can go through everything morally wrong and so analyze it. Are you saying that for a man to such a baby's penis is uncharitable? On what basis? Maybe you are right, but you have to do more than just assert it.

Now, BW makes an interesting case, but he is taking a very different approach. He says it is wrong because it violates the very Scriptures they are trying to uphold. So, in a similar manner, we might say that some supposedly Christian practices are, in fact, immoral (plenty of Christians, for instance, believe that they ought to send their last time to the TV evangelist). Of course, even granting they are wrong about their interpretation of the Torah, the argument only holds if the Torah's ritual law is still prescriptive. Thus, it is not unethical to eat pork because we are no longer under the Law. In fact, we could argue that the ritual is immoral because it attempts to keep the Law in the first place. So Byblos can tell you that, on Catholic theology, keeping the passover meal in a religious sense is a sin (and on Catholic theology, a grave sin indeed!), because it fundamentally denies the fact that Christ has come. And so, we could say that the ritual itself is evil because it attempts to uphold the Law. But, of course, on that argument, we may as well say that all Torah-rituals are unethical in that sense, and that doesn't strike me as the kind of problem you have with this. You seem to be objecting to the ritual on a general basis, not on a special basis. So I think BW's special argument is defensible. I've not seen a defense for your general argument.

I'm not saying you don't have one. I'm saying that, as bizarre as the ritual is, I haven't seen anything presented to show it is intrinsically unethical. You don't get to just assert it. If stupid atheist arguments asserted without evidence can and should be dismissed without evidence, then we don't get to make claims without evidence, either.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#13

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:57 pm

Jac3510 wrote:....Now, BW makes an interesting case, but he is taking a very different approach. He says it is wrong because it violates the very Scriptures they are trying to uphold. So, in a similar manner, we might say that some supposedly Christian practices are, in fact, immoral (plenty of Christians, for instance, believe that they ought to send their last time to the TV evangelist). Of course, even granting they are wrong about their interpretation of the Torah, the argument only holds if the Torah's ritual law is still prescriptive. Thus, it is not unethical to eat pork because we are no longer under the Law. In fact, we could argue that the ritual is immoral because it attempts to keep the Law in the first place. So Byblos can tell you that, on Catholic theology, keeping the passover meal in a religious sense is a sin (and on Catholic theology, a grave sin indeed!), because it fundamentally denies the fact that Christ has come. And so, we could say that the ritual itself is evil because it attempts to uphold the Law. But, of course, on that argument, we may as well say that all Torah-rituals are unethical in that sense, and that doesn't strike me as the kind of problem you have with this. You seem to be objecting to the ritual on a general basis, not on a special basis. So I think BW's special argument is defensible. I've not seen a defense for your general argument.

I'm not saying you don't have one. I'm saying that, as bizarre as the ritual is, I haven't seen anything presented to show it is intrinsically unethical. You don't get to just assert it. If stupid atheist arguments asserted without evidence can and should be dismissed without evidence, then we don't get to make claims without evidence, either.
Jac, you have been here a long time and I was wondering why you decided to climb the moral relativism tree?

An equivalency argument honestly does not cut it. I don't think someone sending all there dough to the TV huckster is in the same league as a blood licking circumcision groupie. The Huckster and the groupie both are guilty of sin. One involving theft and using the name of the Lord in Vain and the Other violating the Torah, which they claim to adhere too, concerning violation of consuming raw Blood and justifying it thru pseudo form of mysticism - which also takes the name of the Lord in Vain and adding to his word.

A Torah keeping sect that violates just one point in that law - is guilty of breaking the whole law. What is also missing is the why - why do occultist drink blood and desire the blood of an infant most? Does this sect involve itself in the Kabbalah? What is the means to attain power in an occult ritual? Why are most Baby and child rapist pedophiles involved in weird rituals involving blood and feces of their victims? I'll let you investigate this own your own. My stance is what the bible says regarding a strict Torah keeping sect and its oddity for ingesting infant male blood which the bible forbids the drinking of all blood. That group - yes a cult - is doing something odd and would you join in such festivities and why or why not?

Please read article as well...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/nyreg ... .html?_r=0


Also Note this from Wiki...

Metzitzah

In addition to milah (the actual circumcision) and p'riah, mentioned above, the Talmud (Mishnah Shabbat 19:2) mentions a third step, metzitzah, translated as suction, as one of the steps involved in the circumcision rite. The Talmud writes that a "Mohel (Circumciser) who does not suck, should be dismissed from practice".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah

Please note the practice did not come from the bible but rather the Talmud...

Please note this quote from link cited below it - as this practice involves the Kabbalah...

In Kabbalah, the concept of metzitzah b’peh plays a very important and significant role. In the Tikunei Zohar it states that the strong correspondence between the actual bris milah and the metzitzah b’peh which follows is rooted in the very gematriya of the word milah, which is 85 or פה-peh-the mouth. Rav Chaim Vital writes that the gematriya of Hashem’s name, אלו-הים, is 86, and he expounds deeply on the correlation and the significance of that number. The mekubalim write that it sweetens all bad judgments that may be coming to a person.

The question that much of the controversy revolved around is whether, despite the fact that it has been the custom and possesses much hidden significance in Kabbalah, metzitzah has to be performed orally or it can be substituted with a different method or perhaps discontinued altogether.

http://matzav.com/halacha-berurah-halac ... itzah-bpeh

The next Links well take it as you will...

History

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... h-345.html

Known cases of sexual abuse

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... crime.html

About the author

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... lieve.html
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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#14

Post by Jac3510 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:15 pm

I know the practice and read the article BW. I wouldnt practice it because I see no benefits and my religion does not reqire it. Im still waiting on someone to tell me why this is intrinsically unethical. With all do respect do you all, and especially Rick, he is the only one putting forward an argument from moral relativism.

You are claiming it ia unethical. On what grounds do you make the claim? It is a simple queation Brian. It shouldnt require a long post or links to the NYT. A simple, objective grounds is sufficient.

So . . . Your grounds are . . . ?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Rabbi performs Oral suction during circumcision

#15

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:43 pm

Jac3510 wrote:I know the practice and read the article BW. I wouldnt practice it because I see no benefits and my religion does not reqire it. Im still waiting on someone to tell me why this is intrinsically unethical. With all do respect do you all, and especially Rick, he is the only one putting forward an argument from moral relativism.

You are claiming it ia unethical. On what grounds do you make the claim? It is a simple queation Brian. It shouldnt require a long post or links to the NYT. A simple, objective grounds is sufficient.

So . . . Your grounds are . . . ?
I just edited in more article links - there are more but this sect abuses are known.

I first heard about this stuff back during 1980's. The vast Majority of Jewish folks deplore this practice and condemn it. No one should paint all Jewish folk with this cultist sect's brush...

Next, after beings CM (Case Manager) working on sex offender management teams, I can assure you that pedophiles whose target group involves infants up to toddler age, use the bible and other religious texts to back up their offences and cover them up. Since they do, does this legitimize their practices? The answer is NO. I have heard it all before - the Kabbalah, the Talmud, the Bible (King David had concubines for a man's needs), Hinduism sex book, Buddhism, etc... I wonder why so many are so silent on reporting the fact that such persons involve themselves with the blood, urine, and feces of their victims in hideous ways they define as acts of love or attainment of spiritual mastery power?? I think it is because of respect for the victims families this aspect is ignored.

Sorry, been too long and dealt with such bloodsucking groupies before and know first hand how they seek power to control and manipulate as many folks as the can. Often they do hide in gowns of any religious order to gain respectability all the while gaming their folks and followers and families, laughing sickly at how easy it is control them.

If we remain silent on this issue - what then? ethical or unehtical? It just may not be about ethics at all but rather how moral evil hoodwinks people in playing its power trips on others.

One other thing to note: That man who recently held three women in his basement for years - died in his jail cell during a masturbation asphyxiation attempt - which is quiet common with gents like that.

If we do not take the time to defend the helpless against such sick souls - exposing their antics - is that ethical?

I for one, will not stand ideally by, knowing what I know about such characters, their ploys, mindsets, and twisted reasons and then sit here and play silly word games as to whether a blood licking groupie should be allowed to practice under the disguise of religious freedom - what an brash attempt to game people to have the last power laugh...

Not Me

So thank you Neo for helping to bring this to light and God bless!
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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