Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

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ultimate777
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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#16

Post by ultimate777 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:33 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
ultimate777 wrote:Do you share my revulsion, FL?
No. Democracies are corrupt as well.

FL
I could be cute, and JUST say, "So, there are some non-democracies you approve of?"

An answer to that might be nice but I think there is more to say.

IMHO all governments are corrupt to a certain extent, but democracies are likely to be less so than non-democracies.
Take Russia, in someways democratic, in some ways not as much as during the Yeltzen era. The government is largely corrupt. If it were truly more democratic I think it would gradually become less corrupt.

And I think wars with democracies as they would be considered today as major players on both sides would be rare. If you site the ACW or the War of 1812 as exceptions, I am talking about democracies with almost total adult sufferage.

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#17

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:35 pm

ultimate777 wrote: I could be cute, and JUST say, "So, there are some non-democracies you approve of?"
Well...yes. Generally, African countries fare better under military dictatorships as these come with an important element missing in African democracies: stability.

Democracy in and of itself is not a guarantee of success for a country. Liberia is an historical example. Zimbabwe is a recent democratic basket case. Ditto for Zambia.
ultimate777 wrote: IMHO all governments are corrupt to a certain extent, but democracies are likely to be less so than non-democracies.
People are corrupt from the cradle, this I know for the Bible tells me so... So any government composed of people is going to have its lot of evil. As for democracies being less likely to be corrupt than other forms of government, well...I'm not sure you could make a good case for that.
ultimate777 wrote:I am talking about democracies with almost total adult sufferage.
Sufferage is almost meaningless. The percentage of eligible voters who actually cast a ballot during an election is more significant. In the West, this percentage is declining markedly for all countries where voting is not compulsory.

Anyway, don't worry. The New Heaven and the New Earth will be a much better place and there will be no democracy there!

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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ultimate777
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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#18

Post by ultimate777 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:10 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
ultimate777 wrote: I could be cute, and JUST say, "So, there are some non-democracies you approve of?"
Well...yes. Generally, African countries fare better under military dictatorships as these come with an important element missing in African democracies: stability.

Of course, after all, didn't Hitler improve the economy in Germany and build the world's best higways? Germany isn't exactly in Africa, but the same principles apply.

Democracy in and of itself is not a guarantee of success for a country. Liberia is an historical example. Zimbabwe is a recent democratic basket case. Ditto for Zambia.

I take that with a grain of salt big enough to dry out San Francisco Bay.
ultimate777 wrote: IMHO all governments are corrupt to a certain extent, but democracies are likely to be less so than non-democracies.
People are corrupt from the cradle, this I know for the Bible tells me so... So any government composed of people is going to have its lot of evil. AS I said.

As for democracies being less likely to be corrupt than other forms of government, well...I'm not sure you could make a good case for that.
ultimate777 wrote:I am talking about democracies with almost total adult sufferage.
Sufferage is almost meaningless.

You know better than that.

The percentage of eligible voters who actually cast a ballot during an election is more significant. In the West, this percentage is declining markedly for all countries where voting is not compulsory.

Often times where democracy is most secure there is the least percentage of voting. I'll bet in 1932 Germany there was a much higher percentage than there was in the USA of the same year.

Anyway, don't worry. The New Heaven and the New Earth will be a much better place and there will be no democracy there!

FL
Well, if you have a perfect leader, what do you expect? How many African regimes of any sort have had perfect leaders?

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#19

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:24 pm

ultimate777 wrote: Well, if you have a perfect leader, what do you expect? How many African regimes of any sort have had perfect leaders?
No country has a perfect leader! Malawi in Africa under Banda (a dictator) was a well run country. Rhodesia under Ian Smith (apartheid state) was a well run country. Singapore Under whatshisname (a dictator) is a well run state.

My point: the leader is more important than the type of political system.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#20

Post by ultimate777 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:59 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
ultimate777 wrote: Well, if you have a perfect leader, what do you expect? How many African regimes of any sort have had perfect leaders?
No country has a perfect leader! Malawi in Africa under Banda (a dictator) was a well run country. Rhodesia under Ian Smith (apartheid state) was a well run country. Singapore Under whatshisname (a dictator) is a well run state.

My point: the leader is more important than the type of political system.

FL
But what happens when the good leader cannot lead anymore?

If every emperor was as good as Augustus then the SPQR might be still around. But look what they got when Augustus died, then look what they got when Tiberius died?

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Furstentum Liechtenstein
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Re: Say my campaign manager stole my election for me?

#21

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:49 pm

ultimate777 wrote:But what happens when the good leader cannot lead anymore?
You elect Obama.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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