Homosexuality is not a sin

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#121

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:35 am

CallMeDave wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:It's probably a good thing that there were no "real christians" present when Jesus told those watching his interaction with the woman taken in adultery (apparently in the very act and part of her lifestyle) to examine themselves and let those with no sin caste the first stone. I get the feeling there might be some on this thread who would have been warming up in the bullpen and ready to go before the last syllable left His lips.
Its interesting to note, that, Jesus rubbed shoulders with scandalous Tax Collectors and Prositutes...but he never condoned their behavior which was sin. Jesus is a Friend of Sinners and our Churches are supposed to be a Hospital for SInners...because people arent supposed to remain in their sin filled Lifestyles . Instead, they are supposed to find Christ and exit the lifestyles which have them on the fast track to a Godless eternity. Christ came to seek and to save those which were lost ... lost in their poorly chosen lifestyles of sin so they could live a victorious life IN CHRIST and be delivered out of the World and its philosophies (Colossians 2:8) . CHrist came so we would have pleasing life to God...and not a sexually bondaged life which God considers perversion , abomination, and harmful to ourselves. Further, Gods Word calls us to expose such evil worldly philosophies that go against the teachings of Christ , therefore it is proper to do so .
It might not hurt to go back to the Gospels and take a closer look Dave.

First, I don't see anyone in this thread defending sin or arguing license so you're arguing against a straw man of your own divising when you attempt to establish yourself as opposed to that when nobody here fits the bill of what you're arguing against.

Second, Jesus chose the company of tax collectors and prostitutes over the company of self-righteous religious people and further those sinners were attracted to Him because while He didn't condone their sin, He demonstrated love and acceptance for them in contrast to the self-righteous religious people who were the most established in the scriptures and who were outwardly the most righteous and least sinful people in the community. Those Pharisees today would be (and often are) the most upstanding members of churches today and their "proud" tradition continues.

Jesus received those sinners before they were made into what you describe and further, unless you're advocating that you believe even a believer or you yourself can be without sin and able to have the mind of God to determine who is saved and who is not then perhaps you need to see if your view of sinners is more in line with Christ or more in line with those whom Christ criticized the most unrelentingly and publically for their self-righteious attitude.
I Cor 3: 1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
It's one thing to speak of other Brothers and Sisters in Christ who are caught in sin and to challenge and encourage them to return and experience fully all that Christ has for them, including the strength to grow and resist temptation. It's another thing to place yourself on the Judgment throne of God and proclaim who is a "real" and isn't a "real" Christian. That is not spiritual maturity. That is immature spiritual arrogance. The judgment as to anyone's salvation is up to God, not you and not anyone else.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#122

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:35 am

CallMeDave wrote:1. The proof is that EVERYTHING we engage in IS a freewill choice we make . God didnt make us like Robots . He hopes we will make good choices that dont harm ourselves and which bring glory to his Name .

2. Gods grace cannot cover repeated sinfilled LIfestyles that he has specifically called out as disqualification of getting to heaven. People CAN overcome any sexual sin (homo or hetero) by what Christ came to do and by the available power of God . People would rather stay in the lifestyle though. And yes, you can become a real born again Christian DURING a sinfilled Lifestyle with the components of : Recieving the finished sin payment of Christ on your behalf by faith alone, then leaving (repenting) the lifestyle bondage youve been in, and making Christ your King and Savior which is evidenced by the subsequent fruit of your life henceforth . If you stay in the sin filled lifestyle, then you havent repented of it . The idea is to leave the world behind and cleave to Christ and godly living ... and not think you can mouth Christ as your 'Savior and King' yet still have no evidential change in your life . Gods grace does not cover that willful attitude because youre still choosing to make something/someone an Idol in your life, instead of Gods rightful place.

Its a shame our Churches dont preach on this much anymore as sin has become an optional thing today given the fact our cultures philosophies have infected Christian c ircles. Christian churches have become less holy and things have become less sacred as time has gone forward, but, the Bible hasnt changed . The rhetorical question becomes : Which are we going to choose for ourselves (?)
It is this type of thinking that in my experience has lead many to turn away. These soon realize that they themselves fall short, and instead of leaning on the everlasting arms, "rationalize" that there is not enough grace, that surely God cannot...which leads to an angry Atheist.

It's a different gospel as it really is no gospel at all.

However, I'm glad, Dave, that you've overcome all your sins and therefore are the only TRUE Christian.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#123

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:38 am

To echo canucksters comment, I think that what changes and continues to change so many sinners is NOT the condemnation of their sin but the love of Christ that strengthens them to change.
As hate begets hate and violence begets violence, condemnation begets condemnation BUT love frees us of sin and strengthens US against it in Christ Our Lord.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#124

Post by jlay » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:07 pm

Dave,

No one here is condoning sinful behavior. Or, saying that Christ is a credit card to sin. To imply such is just dirty debate tactics. I agree, people shouldn't remain in their sinful lifestyle. In fact it's pretty obvious by the very words of Paul that people were making similar accusations about His gospel. He had to answer these very questions. Funny that you should read Romans that way. "Should we go on sinning....." Obviously the idea of unmerited grace was offensive to religious people. The natural question was, "should we go on sinning?" Paul was brilliantly guided by the HS, in that He answers questions the reader will naturally think to ask. Grace? really? Not works? You mean a person doesn't have to commit to following the law? They just trust Christ? Seriously? Well, does that mean we should just go on sinning?..............
As Paul says, heaven forbid. Of course a person SHOULDN'T go on sinning. And a saved person has a great ally in the HS to work in their life. But that is different, far different than what you are saying.

FWIW, I am against easy believism. There are certainly those who will use and abuse the grace of God for an occasion of the flesh. In fact I had a friend growing up that said something like this. "Well, I'll be a Christian just in case. You know, so if it's true, I won't go to Hell." Is this a sinner who knows he NEEDS a savior, and is trusting in the work of Christ? Unlikely.
CHrist came so we would have pleasing life to God...and not a sexually bondaged life which God considers perversion , abomination, and harmful to ourselves. Further, Gods Word calls us to expose such evil worldly philosophies that go against the teachings of Christ , therefore it is proper to do so .
The ultimate work of the cross was God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people's sins against them. Jesus pleased and appeased the Father, and imputes His righteousness to us. That doesn't mean I don't agree that holy living shouldn't follow. God's ultimate victory is also available experiential in our lives as we abide in Him. Paul lays this out in Ephesians. The 1st three chapters lay out what we HAVE in Christ through faith. The next three are instructional on how to live, since we have it. A millionaire can live in a run down mobile home. He shouldn't, but he can.
I think we'd have a lot more reformed lives if we truly preached that Christ was victorious over ALL sin at the cross. But you imply that God is impotent to forgive those who practice such. What this leads to is people who don't truly know what they have "in christ." They think those blessings are something they work towards, instead of the blessings working out of the believer. Big difference. And it results in people who reject the free gift of salvation, because they know, as a sinner, they can't live up to it. What sinner can?
but proof that Someone has saving faith and has been authetically saved.
You remind me a lot of myself a few years ago. It seems to me that you are redefining faith to fit your notions of Lordship salvation. Faith means to believe or to trust in. Someone is authentically saved when they rightly trust Christ as Savior. Period. Anything else is putting the cart before the horse.

Unsaved people can also live reformed lives, yet never have trusted soley in the finished work of Christ. I'm certain their are self-righteous people who think they are saved, who are destined for Hell because they twist the words of God, and refuse to take God at His word.
The equation is : Gods Grace plus Faith alone = salvation plus a changed life including good works and living for God as evidence that One has truly been Born Again.
Let me sum up what your gospel says. "you are saved by grace through faith,...., but you have to have a total life reform, a 100% committment, and full surrender to Christ." This doesn't even follow logically. Either a person is regenerate by trusting Christ as their savior, or latter works are conditional to regeneration. When Paul says, "And you also were included in Christ(positional) when you heard(time) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, (our repsonse) you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Eph. 1:13
Trying to put works as a tag on the end only blows up your own argument. If a person has to reform their life, then it is a matter of personal will. And without you are saying they are not saved. And therefore what Paul says is wrong. They are NOT sealed. Not to mention that it means a persons own effort is conditional to and contributes to salvation. That salvation is conditional to what someone does after they trust Christ, which means the HS is not really a seal of promise.

I guess one could argue that a person is reformed by the HS, but then it's really a moot point. This says, real beleivers WILL reform and fake ones won't. But, if real one's WILL, then your admonition would be pointless. (This is a Calvinism position, but Calvinsm holds solidly to assurance of salvation. That would be the P in TULIP) I know this argument well. So, if a reformed life is the fruit of belief, then the reforming isn't a volitional issue. But of course, as you stated above,
It was actually the final part of my Being that i surrendered to God and boy , am i glad i did.
You are definately presenting it as a volitional issue.

I think there is something else you need to surrender. You need to surrender any thought that you could contribute to, add to, complete, authenticate, prove, etc. your salvation. Now Dave, I would much rather deal with attacking the position than the person. But, if you are going to make such statements then I consider them fair game for criticism. You state this was the final part of your being that you surrendered. Meaning that you are now completely surrendered in all areas of your life. I take it then, that you no longer sin in any degree? Forgive us if we don't take you at your word. I walked down this path and it led to bitterness, pride and self-righteousness. And to preaching a false gospel. It puts the focus on self, and not on Christ. What it does is takes the victim of the enemy, and makes them the enemy.

I have heard this gospel (and i use the word lightly). And here is why it fails. A sinner is dead in their sin. Even though their sins are paid for at the cross,(totally) they live in the dead identity. And they are dead up until the point they are regenerate. When are they regenerate? They can't pledge to reform their life prior to salvation. They are sinners afterall. They can't commit to surrender their lives? They are sinners. But it is clear that scripture says they can believe. And that by believing they can be saved.
This Lordship Gospel is usually formulated on a hodge podge of proof text, many of which don't specfically address personal salvation. For example, Paul dealing with an issue of the Corinthians settling their differences in court. He speaks those words about not inheriting the KOG. But goes on to say, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#125

Post by RickD » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:55 pm

Dave, I'm going to make a suggestion, you can take it or leave it. As a brother in Christ, I ask you to go back through this thread, and sincerely ask God to show you what your brothers in Christ are telling you. I counted no less than five Christians who have disagreed strongly with your posts. Please consider that those here who disagree with you, are disagreeing with you because you are in error.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#126

Post by CallMeDave » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:36 am

PaulSacramento wrote:I think we maybe confusing making a judgment on what is right and wrong and JUDGING others, which the bible makes it clear NOT to do and makes clear the consequences IF we do.
We are to judge fellow Christians pertaining to sexual sin : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

ANd, we are to judge another Believers actions and fruits : http://so4j.com/judging-others-should-c ... iscernment
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#127

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:40 am

CallMeDave wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I think we maybe confusing making a judgment on what is right and wrong and JUDGING others, which the bible makes it clear NOT to do and makes clear the consequences IF we do.
We are to judge fellow Christians pertaining to sexual sin : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

ANd, we are to judge another Believers actions and fruits : http://so4j.com/judging-others-should-c ... iscernment
Callmedave, as seems to be a pattern with many of your proof-texts you isolate those areas that support your attitude while ignoring the full context and surrounding verses.

Here's the full passages with some observations:
I Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]


THe sexual immorality being spoken of was an incestual relationship between a man and his mother who was openly doing so that was known to the community and being tolerated by the church there in Corinth. The "judgement" being spoken of was not an assessment of anyone's salvation but rather how the church was to respond in terms of their tolerance of that person within the local body while they are remaining in that situation. In situations such as that there often can be a response from a body, but in the full context of scripture including those of Matt 18, the intent of any such action is intended to be restorative and not punative. In other words, if such a person, after being confronted at least twice personally and in the presence of witnesses refuses to repent and change their behavior then for the benefit of the church's testimony in the community and the purity of that body are to disassociate from that person while they continue to sin. Clearly understood and implied is that if and when such a person repents of those actions then they are to be received, forgiven and restored. It's not an assessment by that body of the person's salvation in the sense that you appear to wish to promote, in terms of being a "real Christian." Further there are other elements referenced and this is not exclusive to sexual sin. Referenced in the passage as well is that we are to accept such people who are outside of the church who don't know Christ. How are you doing on that one Dave? Are you as careful in your assessment of non-believers and actively seeking to know and associate with them? Included along with sexual immorality are greed, idolatry, a slanderer (meaning a liar and a gossip) or a swindler, again referring in terms of the local churches assessment of believers who are habitually involved in such sin. Sexual sin is isolated in this passage, not because it is a worse sin than any others, but it is the specific situation that Paul is addressing in that specific church and even then he is deliberate in noting that it is part of a spectrum in principle and not just focusing on sexual sin as particularly heinous in God's eyes.

The purpose of discipline within the body, even that which for a season or permanently depending upon the person's response is ultimately restorative, not punative. The ultimate judgement as to a person's salvation is never assigned to us, that is God and God's alone. If and when our motives become such, even within the church to take joy or a sense of satisfaction in the judgment of others or to compare them to ourselves and begin to feel superior or better than them, then we've completely missed the point and moved to the attitude of the Pharisees.

So Dave, are you consistent? When's the last time you spent as much time and effort in addressing greed, idolatry in it's more subtle forms today, a slanderer, or someone who is a swindler? If not, why the focus on this particular sin and how well are you doing on recognizing that non-believers outside of the church involved in all these are to reached out to and welcomed and shown the love of Christ?

The continued popular attitude sadly with many churches is just to lump believers with issues in this area with non-believers, judge them all collectively and make the work of Christ the continued political and social persecution of these "sinners" while ignoring the higher work and calling of Christ to love and connect and see them either restored or brought to Christ.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#128

Post by CallMeDave » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:56 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I think we maybe confusing making a judgment on what is right and wrong and JUDGING others, which the bible makes it clear NOT to do and makes clear the consequences IF we do.
We are to judge fellow Christians pertaining to sexual sin : http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

ANd, we are to judge another Believers actions and fruits : http://so4j.com/judging-others-should-c ... iscernment
Callmedave, as seems to be a pattern with many of your proof-texts you isolate those areas that support your attitude while ignoring the full context and surrounding verses.

Here's the full passages with some observations:
I Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]


THe sexual immorality being spoken of was an incestual relationship between a man and his mother who was openly doing so that was known to the community and being tolerated by the church there in Corinth. The "judgement" being spoken of was not an assessment of anyone's salvation but rather how the church was to respond in terms of their tolerance of that person within the local body while they are remaining in that situation. In situations such as that there often can be a response from a body, but in the full context of scripture including those of Matt 18, the intent of any such action is intended to be restorative and not punative. In other words, if such a person, after being confronted at least twice personally and in the presence of witnesses refuses to repent and change their behavior then for the benefit of the church's testimony in the community and the purity of that body are to disassociate from that person while they continue to sin. Clearly understood and implied is that if and when such a person repents of those actions then they are to be received, forgiven and restored. It's not an assessment by that body of the person's salvation in the sense that you appear to wish to promote, in terms of being a "real Christian." Further there are other elements referenced and this is not exclusive to sexual sin. Referenced in the passage as well is that we are to accept such people who are outside of the church who don't know Christ. How are you doing on that one Dave? Are you as careful in your assessment of non-believers and actively seeking to know and associate with them? Included along with sexual immorality are greed, idolatry, a slanderer (meaning a liar and a gossip) or a swindler, again referring in terms of the local churches assessment of believers who are habitually involved in such sin. Sexual sin is isolated in this passage, not because it is a worse sin than any others, but it is the specific situation that Paul is addressing in that specific church and even then he is deliberate in noting that it is part of a spectrum in principle and not just focusing on sexual sin as particularly heinous in God's eyes.

The purpose of discipline within the body, even that which for a season or permanently depending upon the person's response is ultimately restorative, not punative. The ultimate judgement as to a person's salvation is never assigned to us, that is God and God's alone. If and when our motives become such, even within the church to take joy or a sense of satisfaction in the judgment of others or to compare them to ourselves and begin to feel superior or better than them, then we've completely missed the point and moved to the attitude of the Pharisees.

So Dave, are you consistent? When's the last time you spent as much time and effort in addressing greed, idolatry in it's more subtle forms today, a slanderer, or someone who is a swindler? If not, why the focus on this particular sin and how well are you doing on recognizing that non-believers outside of the church involved in all these are to reached out to and welcomed and shown the love of Christ?

The continued popular attitude sadly with many churches is just to lump believers with issues in this area with non-believers, judge them all collectively and make the work of Christ the continued political and social persecution of these "sinners" while ignoring the higher work and calling of Christ to love and connect and see them either restored or brought to Christ.



Your response was too long to address categorically. SO, for the sake of brevity, ill respond to the jist of your rebuttal herewith :

1. The sexual deviancy within the Corinthian Church at the time was NOT solely incestual relationships if you read the book and in particular 1 Cor. chapter 7 . The sexual sins of this Church (as today) were homosexuality and casual sex outside of marriage in particular. It had become so rampant that Paul felt the need to address these acts and gave specific advice on how to treat those who professed Christ yet made a lifestyle out of such sexual sins. Paul made it clear by calling out these definitive sins , that those professed CHrist Followers engaging in them had no place in Heaven since they are considered an abomination, perversion, etc. in the eyes of God (Romans 1 and Galatians 5 ) .

2. I never indicated that we are to judge anothers Salvation for that is Gods job. However , the Bible says in numerous places that we SHOULD judge Others behavior and actions to determine if they line up with the Word of God and obedience to him. IE: How can we fulfill the Bibles command to approach Another who is going down the wrong road in immorality unless we first judge their actions as to whether they are right or not ? This business of 'Thou Shalt Not Judge' has developed into a mantra to demand tolerance to whatever chosen lifestyle One wishes to engage in ... whereas the term actually means that we should not judge hypocritically and we should not judge Anyone less than total fairness and accuracy in accordance to what Gods Word says on an issue. IE: We are admonished to leave the company of a professed Christian who is caught up in sexual sin ; if we actually did this in our Churches today, we would probably have half the congregation left , sadly. This area of sexual immorality, Satan has used quite effectively to get many peoples focus off of obedience to Christ and Gods Word and onto what feels good .... fooling the Player that he/she is still in good standing with God and that their eternity isnt jeopardized by following their fleshly urges, immoral desires, and worldly lifestyles. Thus, the very purpose of Christ coming to Earth has been thwarted . God doesnt take this very lightly, and he expressed it in no uncertain terms . It is Fools who think they can get away with being wantonly disobedient in the way they live .

3. If this thread were about greed , etc... then i would be addressing those things more specifically. But , this thread is about homosexuality which has developed into the category of general sexual sins , which is why im targetting what God has told us about such matters .

Ergo, Im afraid you have demonstrated to some degree a sense of presumption , misunderstanding, and strawmen rebuttals concerning myself .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#129

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:41 pm

CallmeDave, you underestimate the collective impact of your multiple posts and what they reveal about your thinking.

1. The immediate context of the passage is clear what Paul was addressing and why. The more immediate context within a passage take precedence over attempting to infer other things. If you wished to appeal to I Cor 7, then you should have appealed there rather than the passage you did which has been demonstrated to have been improperly applied by you.

2. You again appeal to strawmen arguments that haven't been presented to you. Perhaps it's a pride issue that you're not willing to accept another's correction or some level of unteachableness on your part? Only you can answer this, but evidently you prefer to argue and repeat yourself even after your assumptions have been refuted and apparently in this context you're more concerned about punishment than you are restoration. That speaks louder in much of what you say here and elsewhere than some of the points you wish address and it may explain why you're not received as well as you might like.

3. The question to you was if you're consistent in your application of these other issues mentioned in the very passage you chose to raise and instead of answering it, you avoided the question. That leaves the impression that you do not wish to answer the question or your own consistency in this area, perhaps because sexual sin in others is more easily seen and addressed than inconsistency in one's self,? Again only you can answer that, but in any event it's evident you're not open to correction and so by your own standards, I'll back away and let you remain as you wish.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#130

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:17 am

I don't like to use a verse to "counter" another, that is not why we have scripture.
My point is that we are to judge what is right and wrong, what is moral and correct in the eyes of God.
Judge actions and morals as beffiting the HS, yes.
BUT we must be cautious in judge others and most certainly be cautious in judge the worth (Christian goodness) of others:
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1-2

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore...." Romans 14:10-13

And remember always that God through Christ is the ultimate, really the ONLY Judge that matters.
In our fallen state we need to realize that though we may know what is right and wrong, the judgement of others is beyond our ability and qualifications because we are NOT perfect or sinnless and in judging others it is OUR "yardstick" that will be used by Christ to judge US.

And when we do speak of these things we must speak with love and compassion:

"...we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ...." Ephesians 4:14-15

"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing [apart from Christ], he deceives himself." Galatians 6:1-3

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#131

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:55 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:CallmeDave, you underestimate the collective impact of your multiple posts and what they reveal about your thinking.

1. The immediate context of the passage is clear what Paul was addressing and why. The more immediate context within a passage take precedence over attempting to infer other things. If you wished to appeal to I Cor 7, then you should have appealed there rather than the passage you did which has been demonstrated to have been improperly applied by you.

2. You again appeal to strawmen arguments that haven't been presented to you. Perhaps it's a pride issue that you're not willing to accept another's correction or some level of unteachableness on your part? Only you can answer this, but evidently you prefer to argue and repeat yourself even after your assumptions have been refuted and apparently in this context you're more concerned about punishment than you are restoration. That speaks louder in much of what you say here and elsewhere than some of the points you wish address and it may explain why you're not received as well as you might like.

3. The question to you was if you're consistent in your application of these other issues mentioned in the very passage you chose to raise and instead of answering it, you avoided the question. That leaves the impression that you do not wish to answer the question or your own consistency in this area, perhaps because sexual sin in others is more easily seen and addressed than inconsistency in one's self,? Again only you can answer that, but in any event it's evident you're not open to correction and so by your own standards, I'll back away and let you remain as you wish.

In order...and my last response in this thread because it is quickly going an arguementative way which is not prosperous.

1. It was yourself who declared that 1 Corinthians was about incestural relationships, and I simply showed that the book is largely about general sexual sin and quoted chapter 5,6,and 7 to back up my points made. I havent 'inferred' anything and rather, have appealed to specific scriptures for truth. Frankly, im wondering why you are taking a dissending view of Pauls letter to warn the Corinthian Church about its sexual sin problems in particular the shunning of professed Christians engaging in them (?). It seems you are striving to diminish/nullify these points made my Paul by detouring to adjunct issues discussed by him -- one must wonder if you hold a tolerant mindset toward sexual sin for whatever reason .

2. 'A pride issue' for teachability on my part is not the case here ; Ive only alluded to the actual truth of Gods Word and quoted passages to back up whatever claim I made. Im always open to teaching from Others but Gods Word overrules and is the final court of arbitration for me.

3. The subject in this thread is Sexual Sin and ive tried diligently to stay on topic by making the posts I did. By me not specifically speaking of OTHER issues doesnt nullify the truth I shared from Gods Word on the present topic being discussed. Its not a case of 'me being afraid , et al...' but it is a case of relating the truth of Gods Word for the specific topic at hand.
And I am totally open to having constructive critisism ON THE SUBJECT MATTER AT HAND ... but im opposed toward attempts to derail a thread --- starting a fresh thread on adjunct issues is a more appropriate choice .

end
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#132

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:06 am

CallmeDave,

1. I did not declare that I Cor was about incestuous relationships. I declared, and demonstrated by quoting the entire passage from which you had isolated 2 verses that the specific verses that you yourself quoted were about a specific incestuous relationship in Corinth.

2. You quote selectively and out of context to demonstrate many of your points and are either willfully ignoring when you're shown otherwise or lack the ability to focus on the specific verse you yourself have introduced. That is often a sign of using verses as prooftexts to validate your already made up mind, not submitting to the "word" itself (and by the way, the title Word of God, is primarily ascribed to Jesus, not to Scripture.) John 5 has some interesting things to say. Further, you then use a universal absolute (I'm always open to teaching to others ....). That speaks volumes. I've seen no evidence of that over a long sustained period of time. Perhaps you could point me to instances in your posts here where you acknowledged and accepted something that others pointed out to you without further debating, qualifying or outright disregarding what has been said to you. Instead you wrap yourself in "God's Word" and often make universal and absolute statements without evidence of you yourself being teachable by anyone else other than your own interpretation (which often you don't even recognize as an interpretation).

3. The subject on this thread is homosexuality and you were asked about a specific reference to Scripture that you yourself made and asked directly in the other categories present in the context of that scripture that you introduced as to whether they were ther equivalent and how you consistently applied the same standard that you did for the one to the others. You evaded and continue to evade that question which was asked to you directly from the context of a passage that you introduced.

I understand I suppose why you no longer wish to discuss these things. Others reading this can determine how credible your position is given these elements and patterns that are demonstrated in you responses here and elsewhere.

I appreciate your concerns as to the direction of a thread. As a moderator I'm sensitive to that as well.

There's a simple solution to your "problem." Another thread can be split off and you yourself could have done so or suggested it, if your concern was the sanctity of the thread. Instead, you invoke a standard that you can hide behind and avoid the direct question and then declare your participation at an "end." Pretty convenient and pretty transparent.

Sorry CallmeDave. It's pretty obvious that you don't want to answer the question.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#133

Post by actsapostolos » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:53 pm

Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Abomination - tow`ebah, something morally disgusting.

Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

De 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Most homosexuals do this).

De 25:16 For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously (immorally), are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rom 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1Co 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (homosexuals), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 5:9-11 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators (this even covers homosexuals): Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

There you have three verses in the NT that state homosexuality is a sin. And Paul even goes on to state: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Master Joshua, and by the Spirit of our YAH."

Pay attention to the word "were." They had forsaken their evil ways.

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