CallMeDave wrote:People who CHOOSE to live this way cannot have any place in heaven
Where's your proof that homosexuality is a choice? I certainly don't "choose" to be heterosexual, nor do/did I choose to be a sinner. Sin is in me and as one, deserving of death whether the sin is thinking about taking a penny or a homosexual act. God's grace can cover them both...ALL sin.
You seem to be saying that a Christian cannot struggle with homosexuality. Is this correct? In other words, one must overcome their homosexuality BEFORE they can be a Christian?
CallMeDave wrote:Compromising may be popular but it is not allowed with God .
Agreed. God does not compromise. There will be no sinners in heaven, yet all Christians are sinners.
1. The proof is that EVERYTHING we engage in IS a freewill choice we make . God didnt make us like Robots . He hopes we will make good choices that dont harm ourselves and which bring glory to his Name .
2. Gods grace cannot cover repeated sinfilled LIfestyles that he has specifically called out as disqualification of getting to heaven. People CAN overcome any sexual sin (homo or hetero) by what Christ came to do and by the available power of God . People would rather stay in the lifestyle though. And yes, you can become a real born again Christian DURING a sinfilled Lifestyle with the components of : Recieving the finished sin payment of Christ on your behalf by faith alone, then leaving (repenting) the lifestyle bondage youve been in, and making Christ your King and Savior which is evidenced by the subsequent fruit of your life henceforth . If you stay in the sin filled lifestyle, then you havent repented of it . The idea is to leave the world behind and cleave to Christ and godly living ... and not think you can mouth Christ as your 'Savior and King' yet still have no evidential change in your life . Gods grace does not cover that willful attitude because youre still choosing to make something/someone an Idol in your life, instead of Gods rightful place.
Its a shame our Churches dont preach on this much anymore as sin has become an optional thing today given the fact our cultures philosophies have infected Christian c ircles. Christian churches have become less holy and things have become less sacred as time has gone forward, but, the Bible hasnt changed . The rhetorical question becomes : Which are we going to choose for ourselves (?)
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
The church ( with some exceptions of course) does indeed make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, they just don't make it out be a more grievous sin than any other ( like theft, murder, adultery, drunkeness, etc...).
PaulSacramento wrote:I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.
Its not ME who decides that, but rather it is clearly outlined in Gods Word and instructions to us all. The Bible makes it clear there are those who have a mental assent of Christ but who are not truly Born Again as Jesus said you have to be in order to get to heaven. The specific requirement for being a real or true Christian is found in Romans 10:8-14 and re-emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-10 . The continual message of Jesus and the Disciples known as The Gospel of good news, was for people to repent of their sins and recieve Christ as their Sin Deliverer / Overcomer / Savior and for a persons heart to become quickened by the power of God along with our cooperation so the remainder of our lives can be lived out in a godly way and by serving God and Others (Christlikeness) . Thats what God wants for each of our lives.
PaulSacramento wrote:I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.
Its not ME who decides that, but rather it is clearly outlined in Gods Word and instructions to us all. The Bible makes it clear there are those who have a mental assent of Christ but who are not truly Born Again as Jesus said you have to be in order to get to heaven. The specific requirement for being a real or true Christian is found in Romans 10:8-14 and re-emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-10 . The continual message of Jesus and the Disciples known as The Gospel of good news, was for people to repent of their sins and recieve Christ as their Sin Deliverer / Overcomer / Savior and for a persons heart to become quickened by the power of God along with our cooperation so the remainder of our lives can be lived out in a godly way and by serving God and Others (Christlikeness) . Thats what God wants for each of our lives.
Since it is not YOU that decides, perhaps you should stop using it.
It's interesting that you quoted Romans 10:8-14 and Ephesians 2:8-10
PaulSacramento wrote:The church ( with some exceptions of course) does indeed make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, they just don't make it out be a more grievous sin than any other ( like theft, murder, adultery, drunkeness, etc...).
Our churches might not draw that distinction, but, the Bible does. The Bible says that sexual sins' gravity is worse because it is the only sin where we sin against our own body in addition to harming others , and it also indicates the consequences are more far reaching than some other sins. Today, we clearly see the enormous consequences of sexual sin with our current STD Epidemic --- 33 circulating STD's which many are permanent for life, some causing premature death (HIV/AIDS and HPV being the precursor to cervical cancer in women and esophugas cancer particular in Teen boys) , over 60,000,000 adult americans carrying at least one STD with 15,000,000 more cases added annually (Sources : U.S. Government CDC and Kaiser Foundation) . It would seem there is no better time in history than to start taking God and his instructions very very seriously and to forego whimsical lusts as vehemently indoctrinated by an out of control Mass Media who could care less about people and whos focus is on financial gain.
Are you finding victory in this area of your Christian life, Paul ? I hope so . It was actually the final part of my Being that i surrendered to God and boy , am i glad i did.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
PaulSacramento wrote:I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.
Its not ME who decides that, but rather it is clearly outlined in Gods Word and instructions to us all. The Bible makes it clear there are those who have a mental assent of Christ but who are not truly Born Again as Jesus said you have to be in order to get to heaven. The specific requirement for being a real or true Christian is found in Romans 10:8-14 and re-emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-10 . The continual message of Jesus and the Disciples known as The Gospel of good news, was for people to repent of their sins and recieve Christ as their Sin Deliverer / Overcomer / Savior and for a persons heart to become quickened by the power of God along with our cooperation so the remainder of our lives can be lived out in a godly way and by serving God and Others (Christlikeness) . Thats what God wants for each of our lives.
Since it is not YOU that decides, perhaps you should stop using it.
It's interesting that you quoted Romans 10:8-14 and Ephesians 2:8-10
Its God who has decided, and its US that are supposed to be Messengers of his truth . Do you find the mentioning of scriptures truth a fly in the ointment to you personally somehow (?) . I regret that I cannot apologize for that Paul.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
PaulSacramento wrote:The church ( with some exceptions of course) does indeed make it clear that homosexuality is a sin, they just don't make it out be a more grievous sin than any other ( like theft, murder, adultery, drunkeness, etc...).
Our churches might not draw that distinction, but, the Bible does. The Bible says that sexual sins' gravity is worse because it is the only sin where we sin against our own body in addition to harming others , and it also indicates the consequences are more far reaching than some other sins. Today, we clearly see the enormous consequences of sexual sin with our current STD Epidemic --- 33 circulating STD's which many are permanent for life, some causing premature death (HIV/AIDS and HPV being the precursor to cervical cancer in women and esophugas cancer particular in Teen boys) , over 60,000,000 adult americans carrying at least one STD with 15,000,000 more cases added annually (Sources : U.S. Government CDC and Kaiser Foundation) . It would seem there is no better time in history than to start taking God and his instructions very very seriously and to forego whimsical lusts as vehemently indoctrinated by an out of control Mass Media who could care less about people and whos focus is on financial gain.
Are you finding victory in this area of your Christian life, Paul ? I hope so . It was actually the final part of my Being that i surrendered to God and boy , am i glad i did.
Like I said before, I agree that homosexuality is a sin.
I just don't find it any more of a sin than any other that is listed with the exception of the BOG ONE which is the blasphemy of the HS.
Where does the bible say that homosexuality is worse than idolitry? than murder? than adultery?
Note that in the BIG 10 it isn't even mentioned.
PaulSacramento wrote:I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.
Its not ME who decides that, but rather it is clearly outlined in Gods Word and instructions to us all. The Bible makes it clear there are those who have a mental assent of Christ but who are not truly Born Again as Jesus said you have to be in order to get to heaven. The specific requirement for being a real or true Christian is found in Romans 10:8-14 and re-emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-10 . The continual message of Jesus and the Disciples known as The Gospel of good news, was for people to repent of their sins and recieve Christ as their Sin Deliverer / Overcomer / Savior and for a persons heart to become quickened by the power of God along with our cooperation so the remainder of our lives can be lived out in a godly way and by serving God and Others (Christlikeness) . Thats what God wants for each of our lives.
Since it is not YOU that decides, perhaps you should stop using it.
It's interesting that you quoted Romans 10:8-14 and Ephesians 2:8-10
Its God who has decided, and its US that are supposed to be Messengers of his truth . Do you find the mentioning of scriptures truth a fly in the ointment to you personally somehow (?) . I regret that I cannot apologize for that Paul.
Nope, nothing personal at all since I agree with you in the fact that homosexuality is a sin.
What I don't agree with is claiming who is and isn't a "real" christian, what I don't agree is passing judgment on others in regards to their christianity, what I don't agree with is pushing away the very people we are suppose to be drawing to us.
. God’s grace cannot cover repeated sinfilled LIfestyles that he has specifically called out as disqualification of getting to heaven.
It disappoints me to hear a believer say such things. Obviously that is not the measure of judgment I would want measured to myself. This position butchers the term grace.
It presumes that the term "KOH" refers to a person’s individual salvation. Do you find that consistent with how the term is used throughout scripture?
No matter how you want to paint it, this is works salvation. Faith, plus life reform equals salvation. If you don't reform your life you either weren’t' saved, or will lose salvation. Not to mention it is also a bad usage of the word repent. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf
This is extreme Lordship salvation, or what I call modern Phariseism. In other words, sure you need the grace of God, but it is just as contingent on your will power and discipline. A view that I would say one needs to repent of.
Of course the person who holds this view always sees their own lifestyle as somewhere above the ambiguous 'holy' line.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
It's probably a good thing that there were no "real christians" present when Jesus told those watching his interaction with the woman taken in adultery (apparently in the very act and part of her lifestyle) to examine themselves and let those with no sin caste the first stone. I get the feeling there might be some on this thread who would have been warming up in the bullpen and ready to go before the last syllable left His lips.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Interestingly put jlay.
My own lifestyle I find wanting.
I could give more, preach more, be more Christian in my everyday dealings, be a better father and husband, a better son, be more devoted to prayers and so much more.
But I am a hetrosexual so that's ok
I am more thankful for the grace of God through Christ than I can ever put on words because through Christ we have something that we NEVER would be able to have earned ourselves - God's grace.
. God’s grace cannot cover repeated sinfilled LIfestyles that he has specifically called out as disqualification of getting to heaven.
It disappoints me to hear a believer say such things. Obviously that is not the measure of judgment I would want measured to myself. This position butchers the term grace.
It presumes that the term "KOH" refers to a person’s individual salvation. Do you find that consistent with how the term is used throughout scripture?
No matter how you want to paint it, this is works salvation. Faith, plus life reform equals salvation. If you don't reform your life you either weren’t' saved, or will lose salvation. Not to mention it is also a bad usage of the word repent. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf
This is extreme Lordship salvation, or what I call modern Phariseism. In other words, sure you need the grace of God, but it is just as contingent on your will power and discipline. A view that I would say one needs to repent of.
Of course the person who holds this view always sees their own lifestyle as somewhere above the ambiguous 'holy' line.
The equation is : Gods Grace plus Faith alone = salvation plus a changed life including good works and living for God as evidence that One has truly been Born Again. THAT is not a 'works oriented' salvation...but proof that Someone has saving faith and has been authetically saved. People who continue to live in a willful chosen Lifestyle such as sexual sin have not shown making Christ the Lord over all areas of their life. We dont immediately make Christ Lord of our entire life...but there should be an obvious progression to that end as time continues forward. However, if we make the sacrifice of Christ a credit card to sin, then we are only fooling ourselves and no salvation has really took place. Read the book of Romans where it says 'heaven forbid , that we should treat the grace of God like that' .
God expects us to live above reproach as his Ambassadors ; so many people think they can be Christians yet live as THEY like with titilizing fleshly pleasures that are of the World. Certainly, you dont follow that philosophy do u ?
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
Canuckster1127 wrote:It's probably a good thing that there were no "real christians" present when Jesus told those watching his interaction with the woman taken in adultery (apparently in the very act and part of her lifestyle) to examine themselves and let those with no sin caste the first stone. I get the feeling there might be some on this thread who would have been warming up in the bullpen and ready to go before the last syllable left His lips.
Its interesting to note, that, Jesus rubbed shoulders with scandalous Tax Collectors and Prositutes...but he never condoned their behavior which was sin. Jesus is a Friend of Sinners and our Churches are supposed to be a Hospital for SInners...because people arent supposed to remain in their sin filled Lifestyles . Instead, they are supposed to find Christ and exit the lifestyles which have them on the fast track to a Godless eternity. Christ came to seek and to save those which were lost ... lost in their poorly chosen lifestyles of sin so they could live a victorious life IN CHRIST and be delivered out of the World and its philosophies (Colossians 2:8) . CHrist came so we would have pleasing life to God...and not a sexually bondaged life which God considers perversion , abomination, and harmful to ourselves. Further, Gods Word calls us to expose such evil worldly philosophies that go against the teachings of Christ , therefore it is proper to do so .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
PaulSacramento wrote:I think you need to stop using the term "real christian" because it seems to imply that YOU are the one deciding who is and isn't.
Its not ME who decides that, but rather it is clearly outlined in Gods Word and instructions to us all. The Bible makes it clear there are those who have a mental assent of Christ but who are not truly Born Again as Jesus said you have to be in order to get to heaven. The specific requirement for being a real or true Christian is found in Romans 10:8-14 and re-emphasized in Ephesians 2:8-10 . The continual message of Jesus and the Disciples known as The Gospel of good news, was for people to repent of their sins and recieve Christ as their Sin Deliverer / Overcomer / Savior and for a persons heart to become quickened by the power of God along with our cooperation so the remainder of our lives can be lived out in a godly way and by serving God and Others (Christlikeness) . Thats what God wants for each of our lives.
Since it is not YOU that decides, perhaps you should stop using it.
It's interesting that you quoted Romans 10:8-14 and Ephesians 2:8-10
Its God who has decided, and its US that are supposed to be Messengers of his truth . Do you find the mentioning of scriptures truth a fly in the ointment to you personally somehow (?) . I regret that I cannot apologize for that Paul.
Nope, nothing personal at all since I agree with you in the fact that homosexuality is a sin.
What I don't agree with is claiming who is and isn't a "real" christian, what I don't agree is passing judgment on others in regards to their christianity, what I don't agree with is pushing away the very people we are suppose to be drawing to us.
There is nothing wrong at all by going to the final court of abritration, called The Bible, to see how it defines what a real Christian is. Nothing wrong with appealing to the Bible . Nothing wrong with making judgements based on IT, either. We are called to make sound judgements based on the truth of Gods Word , and in fact, we make judgements every single day hopefully on the truth of Gods Word .
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.
"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.
I think we maybe confusing making a judgment on what is right and wrong and JUDGING others, which the bible makes it clear NOT to do and makes clear the consequences IF we do.
Last edited by PaulSacramento on Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
