Homosexuality is not a sin

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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BryanH
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#46

Post by BryanH » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:26 am

That's nonsense. So, according to you, black people should rule over the whites for a few hundred years because it was the other way around in the past? That would be a brilliant way of fixing historical inequities. Should we also re-establish vendetta?
I didn't say anything of that. I just said that today you just suffer the consequences of mistakes that have happened in the past and were done in the name of Christianity. I understand that you don't agree with what those people have done, but you are part of the Christian community. So today you might be seen as backwards, brainwashed, conditioned. But again that doesn't mean that you or others as individuals have such characteristics. I merely pointed out how change happens in history and how you can be in a position which you don't feel that comfortable as it once was. That's all.

Again, that doesn't mean that I agree with people calling you brainwashed, backwards, conditioned etc etc. That's a mean thing to do in the first place and it's wrong.
Again, I don't see anything offensive directed at the people, but rather at the lifestyle.
Life style is a part of people, you know that, right? I mean life style is related to what I do and what I do characterizes me... So you see, it is directed at people.
You didn't reply to my question. What is forbidden to homosexuals, while at the same time allowed to heterosexuals?
Well, I think that they are denied one of the most important rights... the right to spirituality...
I think that CallMeDave pointed out this problem very well: he looks at homosexuals as sinners and people who are perverting the natural law... bla bla
How can a homosexual get some relief from this stigma?
Where are the limits of "diversity"? Why doesn't your "diversity" apply to Christians disagreeing with lifestyles they don't approve of? Nobody is attacking or hating anyone here, contrary to what you think. What's so wrong about expressing disagreement?
Disagreement is one, acting on it is a different thing: I think that the example with the catholic child adoption charity organizations that were closed because of homosexual couples who wanted to adopt children is a clear example of how things can be taken to the extreme.


Who says that I am allowed to? What if I get aroused to a girl I see in the street? The law (rightfully) says that I'm not allowed to rape her. According to you, is that discrimination? Seriously, what's with these "instinct" schemes? Reason is what differs us from animals. People use their reason, animals use their instincts. But I guess, evolutionary teachings have contributed to animalizing humans.
I think that you have an inclination of taking things to the extreme yourself. You are giving some examples that have nothing to do with what I said.

When I said that sex is one of the basic instincts and I didn't say follow it every time you feel the urge. Of course we are humans and we have reason and educate our instincts. I just said that as a woman and a man have sex and it is considered to be normal, homosexual people should be allowed the same right without being called perverts or an abomination of nature...

Society changes and humans have the ability of adapting to a new environment and new conditions.
You know, this is already happening.
Sorry about that. I do know a place in my own country where things go the other way around. More and more churches are being built. Don't know why they build so many, but I guess that if you are a Christian it's nice to have a church every half of mile or so. Give me a PM and I will tell you the location. You might want to visit it in the near future.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#47

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:23 am

BryanH wrote:@CallMeDave

So what is your problem with them assuming a risk? Does that concern you? Is that your problem? Are they making you ill? Are homosexual people coming to your door, knocking and asking to have sex with you? I assume that is not the case. Anyways, what is the connection between medical problems and being a sinner? You can get cancer and be a "perfect" Christian. I don't see why you should make a connection between homosexual, STDs and religion.

If things are as you present them to be, at some point in time all homosexuals will die from an STD. Problem solved: no more gay people:))

Anyways, you haven't answered my question: love and sex don't go together. How come you mix love and sex and homosexual people? Again, as I said before, you mix some personal opinions with real life. Having personal opinions is ok, but you speak of homosexual people in a very disrespectful way.

Let me remind you something: 2000 years ago, Christianity was a minority and very few people were Christians in the first place. The fact that today, Christianity has become an important religion doesn't give you the right to apply "bible laws" on other people and say that what they do is wrong and perverted.
Lots of Christian people have been killed because they tried to pass on the word of God/Jesus.

Now think of homosexuals and put yourself in their position. Just because you don't agree with what they do doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to doing that. They are a minority and they fight for their rights and they want to be treated equally.

Why should they be called sinners? Just because you have a book which you claim to be the word of a God that you can't even prove that it exists?

So when I said that you should show some respect for homosexual people, that is what I was referring to. Hope that now is more clear. I for one am tired of this blatant discrimination over homosexual people and blaming them for STDs are being perverts or something like that. And another thing: you keep talking about anal sex and stuff like that. Don't forget that homosexual people includes both men and women. The numbers you presented from CDC just says that men who are homosexual have a higher chance of contracting an STD. Well, again, it's their choice, not yours. Why should you point a finger at them?

In order ----

1. The problem with Homosexuality is first and foremost , that our Creator calls it an abomination , a perversion, and those making a lifestyle out of it incapable of ever making it to heaven (1 Cor. 6 ) ... therefore it is an evil which the Bible calls us to expose (Gal. 5) . I cant think of a greater evil than something which entraps many and allows them to miss out on a safe eternity in addition to creating havoc with their own lives as well as others and society at large thru the spread of diseases coming directly from homosexuality. Further, another big problem is the desensitizing , indoctrination, and deceptive teaching that Homosexual Groups are doing by entering our grade schools, jr. high schools, and high schools in addition to our mass medias promotion of a very dangerous lifestyle . So, those are my problems and they should be yours too if you are concerned about Others.

2. The connection between medical problems and being a Sinner, is that the fruit of a sinful lifestyle is displayed thru diseases of which many dont have a cure for. Rebel against God and his protective moral mandates and youll see bad fruit as a result. Bad fruit in the case of homosexuality has been proved to be devastating including painful premature death .

3. If Homosexuals dont end up dying prematurely from specific acquired diseases, they at least store up for themselves a very regretful, painful, shameful eternity.

4. I 'mix love and sex' with Homosexual people because THAT is the common retort THEY use when trying to justify a very wrong and dangerous lifestyle .

5. What is right from wrong isnt based on 'my' standards and declarations...but on what the Creator declares to ALL of mankind which are for our own good . I am however commanded to help people that have fallen off the path back onto the path ; is there a reason why you could care less about doing this for Others ? Im not called to be tolerant of all lifestyles ... just to try and help people see the correct path and the consequences if they choose to refuse that path. The path is Gods path, not my own .

6. Homosexuals can choose to stay in thier ensnarement if they wish, but they are not entitled to bring devastation on Others and eventually harm to an entire Society , which they are doing and have done. And, they ARE required to live in accordance to Gods loving protective moral mandates just like the rest of us are.

7. Homosexuals practice a lifestyle of Sin because our Creators inspired word to mankind calls it sin . ANd the Bible can be shown to exist, be inspired from God supernaturally, and our personal theistic Creator can be shown to exist by the Bible he has given us / the many scientific evidences for him being a personal theistic Creator / thru the historical Person of Jesus Christ / and thru the many billions of testimonys on how Christ has changed our hearts, mind, and desires thru this power. This same power is available to the homosexual community if they want it. The same goes for you to.

8. I show disrespect for the lifestyle that Homosexuals have chosen for themselves , the same i show disrespect for heterosexual hedonism that is rampant today . It is a perversion to stick Ones penis into disease-laden human excrement whether homo or hetero , it is a perversion to smear/eat feces of another , to jam a fist up anothers butt, or to urinate on another . Certainly you dont call these things non perversional do you ? Or are you trying to defend a close friend or loved one who is caught up in the perverted lifestyle ?

9. CDC isnt just showing 'a higher rate'....CDC is defining the specific diseases directly associated with a penis entering feces and the 61 percentage rate of ALL CURRENT STD's coming directly from male homosexuality.

10. How come you arent loving enough to alert Homosexuals to the danger , instead of displaying an apathetic response ?
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#48

Post by Reactionary » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:07 am

BryanH wrote:Again, that doesn't mean that I agree with people calling you brainwashed, backwards, conditioned etc etc. That's a mean thing to do in the first place and it's wrong.
I'm glad that we agree on that.
BryanH wrote:Life style is a part of people, you know that, right? I mean life style is related to what I do and what I do characterizes me... So you see, it is directed at people.
Are you sure? Not everything someone does is a part of him/her, at least not according to Christianity. This is important, as you'll see in the following paragraphs. Basically, sin is considered a flaw within humans which corrupts our image of God to which we were created. None of us can fully abandon it, but we can use our reason and free will to fight it to a large extent. So, is sin a part of us? In some way, yes, but if we look at the core of the human reason, I would argue no. We have the ability to know good from evil (although sin can contaminate even our conscience, so the Bible serves as our objective moral compass), and the free will to fight sin. It's just that we're sometimes too weak to resist, some more, some less. That's why our doctrine is to judge the sin, but not the sinner. If I were doing something morally wrong, and a fellow Christian warned me about it, I wouldn't consider it an offense directed at me, but rather a wake up call. On the other hand, I would be offended if someone stigmatized me for something I did or have done.
BryanH wrote:Well, I think that they are denied one of the most important rights... the right to spirituality...
The right to spirituality? I don't understand. Christianity has rules. Those rules were made by our Creator, not because He's a control freak who likes to be obeyed, but because those rules are good for us. I can testify to that personally, and many other Christians would say the same - that Christianity is, in the long term, physically, mentally and spiritually the healthiest lifestyle. You are, of course, free to accept or reject it. However, if you want comfort, then I'm afraid Christianity is not the most comforting worldview. An eternity in Hell is not a very attractive possibility.
BryanH wrote:I think that CallMeDave pointed out this problem very well: he looks at homosexuals as sinners and people who are perverting the natural law... bla bla
How can a homosexual get some relief from this stigma?
Read again what I wrote about sin and sinners. According to Christianity, having homosexual tendencies by themselves is not a sin. Acting upon them, however, is. That's just the way things are in the Christian worldview. Again, nobody's forcing you to accept it. By the way, I haven't noticed an enthusiastic desire to join Christianity among homosexuals. I might be wrong, but my impression is that many of them hate Christianity and want to see it disappear from the face of the Earth. To those who do - I'll have to disappoint them, as Christianity has survived everything, from ancient Roman lions, to totalitarian dictatorships of the 20th century.
BryanH wrote:I think that you have an inclination of taking things to the extreme yourself. You are giving some examples that have nothing to do with what I said. (...) Society changes and humans have the ability of adapting to a new environment and new conditions.
I see a contradiction here. You claim that we can adapt to new conditions, but at the same time you say that I'm taking things to an extreme. So, you do believe in limits after all. I'd like to know, if society is ever-changing, where should we put those limits. Of course, you could (rightfully) say that rape is wrong because it doesn't include the woman's consent, but this "no consent = crime" rule can also be twisted, as everything in moral relativism. What about children conceived via IVF with sperm donated by an anonymous donor? Do they have the right to be born in a family consisted of their biological mother and father? Did anyone ask them for their consent? You could respond by saying that there are orphans, or children with violent parents, but the difference is that these children are conceived knowing that they'll never live with their biological parents.

I digressed a bit. My point is, that if we remove objective moral boundaries, step by step, something that was unimaginable yesterday, could become a reality tomorrow.
BryanH wrote:Sorry about that. I do know a place in my own country where things go the other way around. More and more churches are being built. Don't know why they build so many, but I guess that if you are a Christian it's nice to have a church every half of mile or so. Give me a PM and I will tell you the location. You might want to visit it in the near future.
I doubt it, but I understand your point.
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#49

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:19 am

CallmeDave wrote:
1. The problem with Homosexuality is first and foremost , that our Creator calls it an abomination , a perversion, and those making a lifestyle out of it incapable of ever making it to heaven (1 Cor. 6 )
Dave, could you please tell me why you believe those who practice a "homosexual lifestyle" won't ever make it to heaven? Here is the scripture you referenced, for clarity:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#50

Post by BryanH » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:28 am

@CallMeDave
Since you repeat some of the things you said before, I will just quote my favorite paragraph from what you said. Hope you don't mind
Homosexuals can choose to stay in thier ensnarement if they wish, but they are not entitled to bring devastation on Others and eventually harm to an entire Society , which they are doing and have done. And, they ARE required to live in accordance to Gods loving protective moral mandates just like the rest of us are.
So homosexual people harm the society. Let's blame it on the homosexuals. They destroy and harm society:))))

They ARE REQUIRED to live in accordance to Gods moral mandates.
Actually nobody is required to do that. Forgot? Free will?

CallMeDave as I said: I do understand your position on homosexuality, but being disrespectful won't get you very far...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
You can always ask for forgiveness... As long as you are sorry... God may forgive you...

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#51

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:41 am

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
BryanH wrote:
You can always ask for forgiveness... As long as you are sorry... God may forgive you...
Bryan, you seem to be on the same track that I'm headed with this. I'd like to see what Dave has to say. He did say that "The problem with Homosexuality is first and foremost , that our Creator calls it an abomination , a perversion, and those making a lifestyle out of it incapable of ever making it to heaven (1 Cor. 6 )".

I'd like to hear Dave's reasoning for that statement, and how 1 Corinthians 6 backs up what he believes.
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#52

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:42 am

RickD wrote:CallmeDave wrote:
1. The problem with Homosexuality is first and foremost , that our Creator calls it an abomination , a perversion, and those making a lifestyle out of it incapable of ever making it to heaven (1 Cor. 6 )
Dave, could you please tell me why you believe those who practice a "homosexual lifestyle" won't ever make it to heaven? Here is the scripture you referenced, for clarity:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
My NIV Bible for that passage says 'homosexuals' . Either way, Sexual Immoralists covers Homo and Hetero . Also have a look at Galatians chapt. 5 .
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#53

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:49 am

My NIV Bible for that passage says 'homosexuals' . Either way, Sexual Immoralists covers Homo and Hetero . Also have a look at Galatians chapt. 5 .
Dave, whether it says "homosexuals", "homosexual offenders", or "men who have sex with men", doesn't make a difference, as it pertains to my question to you.

Take the verses as they are written in your bible, and see if you can answer my question, please.

Heres from Galatians 5:19-21
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Use both scriptures to answer my question, if you wish.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#54

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:51 am

BryanH wrote:@CallMeDave
Since you repeat some of the things you said before, I will just quote my favorite paragraph from what you said. Hope you don't mind
Homosexuals can choose to stay in thier ensnarement if they wish, but they are not entitled to bring devastation on Others and eventually harm to an entire Society , which they are doing and have done. And, they ARE required to live in accordance to Gods loving protective moral mandates just like the rest of us are.
So homosexual people harm the society. Let's blame it on the homosexuals. They destroy and harm society:))))

They ARE REQUIRED to live in accordance to Gods moral mandates.
Actually nobody is required to do that. Forgot? Free will?

CallMeDave as I said: I do understand your position on homosexuality, but being disrespectful won't get you very far...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
You can always ask for forgiveness... As long as you are sorry... God may forgive you...
Yes, Homosexuals as well as ALL Sexual Deviant Lifestyles bring harm to society ; premature loss of life often occurs to the Players or disease as a minimum, loss of life or diseases for many innocent non Players such as unsuspecting Spouses and I.V. Transfusion contraction, murdering of the unborn developing person for birth control (heterosexual hedonism) , a huge medical finanical burden on society and government , a world reputation of being a morally corrupt Nation, et al...

Why dont you understand my position on homosexuality ? Havent i made myself clear enough on it ?

Yes, you can choose to repent which means TURNING from a sin lifestyle then trusting Christs death sacrifice to cover that sin ...but you mock God when you dont turn from the sin and keep doing it , and you dont get forgiven . Its not just a matter of being sorry. It requires a heart change to not go back to it.
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#55

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:55 am

RickD wrote:
My NIV Bible for that passage says 'homosexuals' . Either way, Sexual Immoralists covers Homo and Hetero . Also have a look at Galatians chapt. 5 .
Dave, whether it says "homosexuals", "homosexual offenders", or "men who have sex with men", doesn't make a difference, as it pertains to my question to you.

Take the verses as they are written in your bible, and see if you can answer my question, please.

Heres from Galatians 5:19-21
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Use both scriptures to answer my question, if you wish.
To answer your question to me : It is because God says in the passages you have quoted, that Sexual Immoralists will not enter Heaven . You provided the answer yourself.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#56

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:19 am

Ok, good Dave. Thanks for answering my question, and see if you can follow what I'm thinking here. I think the way you're interpreting those scriptures is by plain reading. Kinda like one would read a news article in the newspaper. I don't think reading these verses this way is consistent with what scripture, as a whole, is consistently teaching us. Take 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

And
Galatians 5:19-21
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The way you're reading and interpreting this, would tell me that nobody would inherit the kingdom of God. I believe there is another way to read this. A way more consistent with all of scripture. I'll see if I can make it understandable. Those scriptures are referring to our sinful nature, not our new nature in Christ. Our sinful nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But, once we accept Christ, we are a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I guess what I'm saying is that there are Christians, new creatures in Christ, who struggle with all kinds of sin. Just because we are born-again, that doesn't rid us of our old selves. We still fight with our sinful nature. So, what I believe the scriptures are saying here, is that once we are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God, we are new creatures in Christ. And, even if a Christian struggles with sin, including homosexual sin, that doesn't exclude him from heaven. It just excludes his sinful nature from heaven. Just like all of our sinful natures won't ever inherit eternal life.
I hope I made some semblance of sense.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#57

Post by B. W. » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:28 am

Bryan H

You, yourself, admitted on another thread that there are no moral absolutes and then claim on this thread that any manner of sexual love, including homosexual love, is okay on the bases of love alone.

How can you make that truth claim since you have no moral basis for that judgment?

God defined and gave the objective standards to love in marriage that is confined to husband and wife and children.

All other types sexual love are immoral to God in that these attempt to mock God that he does not know better. That he must accept them, their acts, or else God really does not love. In other words, homosexual and all immoral sexuality demand that all must submit to them, or else.

That attitude is called rebellion and is militantly aggressive. The key leaders, or spokes people for the gay community stated that their objectives are to – one – destroy the family unit and two – force Christianity into non-being. The purpose of gay marriage is not about love, but about destroying ministers and ministries that refuse to marry them by use of lawsuits.

So you have the dupes in the agenda, like yourself, trying to force God to accept their lifestyle and bend over to them as was tried in Sodom long ago. If laws were passed protecting Churches and Ministries from homosexual lawsuits then the move would die out. It is all about a game of dominance. Paul writes in Romans what God does for such folk – turns them over to their own passions.

Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
NASB


It is an act of love that Jesus Christ came and died, exposing all our sins, what they are and do, to forgive those who believe in him so they escape the wrath to come John 3:36c and be transformed out of darkness into His marvelous light.

It is an act of love to protect those who come to him from those that seek dominate, rob, destroy, the goodness God has by actions, words, debate which seek to pit God’s goodness against God’s on goodness.

If you choose that life style, or any immoral life style God defines as debased, then He will let you have at it because that is what you love more than Him. That is what it says in Romans chapter One. Then, to demand that God does not love if He does not accept your argument about what love is/does mocks the purpose of Cross of Christ.

All sexual immorality defined by God promotes all manner of STD’s and all have some sort of long term effects as well to (social, physical, psychological). It causes untold woe upon families and does more to kill, rob, and destroy than many other sins defined by God. People, like yourself, love sin more than God and demand that God prove his love by accepting your definition of love. That is the attitude common to all sexual immorality, seeks to dominate and control. God will not bow to you, or the homosexual movement.

People are free to practice such immoral lifestyles. Those that do must face a day judgment. All we as Christians can do is to offer Christ to you to freely accept or reject, warning every person and offering God’s choice to choose whom they’ll serve. After that, one’s choice is upon their own head - what will that choice be?
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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#58

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:33 am

RickD wrote:Ok, good Dave. Thanks for answering my question, and see if you can follow what I'm thinking here. I think the way you're interpreting those scriptures is by plain reading. Kinda like one would read a news article in the newspaper. I don't think reading these verses this way is consistent with what scripture, as a whole, is consistently teaching us. Take 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

And
Galatians 5:19-21
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The way you're reading and interpreting this, would tell me that nobody would inherit the kingdom of God. I believe there is another way to read this. A way more consistent with all of scripture. I'll see if I can make it understandable. Those scriptures are referring to our sinful nature, not our new nature in Christ. Our sinful nature cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But, once we accept Christ, we are a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I guess what I'm saying is that there are Christians, new creatures in Christ, who struggle with all kinds of sin. Just because we are born-again, that doesn't rid us of our old selves. We still fight with our sinful nature. So, what I believe the scriptures are saying here, is that once we are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God, we are new creatures in Christ. And, even if a Christian struggles with sin, including homosexual sin, that doesn't exclude him from heaven. It just excludes his sinful nature from heaven. Just like all of our sinful natures won't ever inherit eternal life.
I hope I made some semblance of sense.
The present sexually immoral who are making a lifestyle out of it, will NOT enter Heaven and the following is confirmation of it : "11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." A person can have once been a Sexual Immoralist , but when he gets this sin washed by Christs sacrifice AND repents of his sin...then he is as he never committed that sin. I hope you havent fallen into the deceptive trap that a person can just 'claim Christ' without any repentence and thus continue on living like a person of the World, have you ? God cannot be mocked if such a person continues in his sin , which is why Christ in the book of Matthew gave the parable of the sheep and goats and how some people never knew him to which he said 'Depart from me for i never knew you' . It takes more than a mental assent of Christ and mouthing a sinners prayer..........it MUSt be accompanied by a true born again / heart change experience (a complete break from the bondage) or put another way...'a NEW creation in Christ Jesus' . People are fooling themselves if they think they can continue to live in the sinful lifestyles that Christ came to die for. Its a shame that our sexual immoral culture has infected our churches so well that some people think they can have Christ AND the sexual culture at the same time . Its a philosophy straight from the pit of hell itself.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#59

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:46 am

Dave, I'm simply saying that we still struggle against our sinful nature, even though we are new creatures in Christ. I can't tell you how often I ask God to forgive me for sinning. Until my redemption is complete, I will still struggle with sin. I'm not going to claim that once someone who was a homosexual, and becomes born-again, will never be tempted with a homosexual lifestyle again. I know some people who after being saved, had no desire for the things that they did before. But, I also know people who after being saved, still struggle with sin and addictive behaviors. God works differently in different people. I'm specifically talking about true, born-again Christians. Not nominal christians. So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that a true, born-again Christian, that struggles with homosexual temptation, even though he is repentant, will not go to heaven?
People are fooling themselves if they think they can continue to live in the sinful lifestyles that Christ came to die for.
As long as we are in this temporary body, we will struggle with sin. Christ died to redeem us. That doesn't free us from sin, until this temporary creation is destroyed. That is the purpose of this creation. To eliminate sin and evil.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Homosexuality is not a sin

#60

Post by CallMeDave » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:59 am

RickD wrote:Dave, I'm simply saying that we still struggle against our sinful nature, even though we are new creatures in Christ. I can't tell you how often I ask God to forgive me for sinning. Until my redemption is complete, I will still struggle with sin. I'm not going to claim that once someone who was a homosexual, and becomes born-again, will never be tempted with a homosexual lifestyle again. I know some people who after being saved, had no desire for the things that they did before. But, I also know people who after being saved, still struggle with sin and addictive behaviors. God works differently in different people. I'm specifically talking about true, born-again Christians. Not nominal christians. So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that a true, born-again Christian, that struggles with homosexual temptation, even though he is repentant, will not go to heaven?
People are fooling themselves if they think they can continue to live in the sinful lifestyles that Christ came to die for.
As long as we are in this temporary body, we will struggle with sin. Christ died to redeem us. That doesn't free us from sin, until this temporary creation is destroyed. That is the purpose of this creation. To eliminate sin and evil.

Im saying that 'a lifestyle of homosexuality' whether one says he has recieved Christ or not, cannot enter Heaven. A person may have thoughts, desires, and temptations in the area of homosexuality .. but the reason why Christ came to Earth was TO SET US FREE FROM the enslavement of sin such as making a continuous habit of a sinful lifestyle. When we are truly born again, we repent and leave the former way of living which is of the world and against God, for a victorious walk with God . Sure , we will occassionally sin even for Christians who have had many years of Gods sanctifying work in their lives...but God gave us power and expects us not to keep on living as if we were never born again. In other words, its THE FRUIT of our lives which is evidence as whether we have had a true conversion.

As to you last paragraph, God knows our heart , our desires, and our motives and how sincere we were at wanting , trying, changing, and relying on his power to be Overcomers of sin.
"I never asserted such an absurd proposition, that something could arise without a Cause" -- staunch atheist Philosopher David Hume.

"What this world now needs is Christian love or compassion" -- staunch atheist Bertrand Russell.

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