Gay Rights

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Murray
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Re: Gay Rights

#16

Post by Murray » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:08 pm

Hundreds of children with no homes thanks to people standing up for their faith. They were given the choice and they chose to abandon the children. Better no homes at all than some gay households seems pretty unreasonable to me but each to their own
Well if you wish to critisize the way the catholic church takes care of children, maybe you should start you own atheist orphanage , you can be the first :)

And why look at one veiw of the issue? Why not look at it in the sence that if the government (which should have no regulation over a catholic orphanage by the way) allowed the church to continue to give children to Straight couples only, these orphanages would still be around, but again the big old gov. stuck their noses into religon and said nope, close or violate your religon your choice. And really these are catholic nuns who have devoted their lives to the faith, you know darn well the government knew what their choice would be. And Im sure these children will soon be under care of another CATHOLIC orphanage soon.

Here is an idea, why not go ask richard dawkins to instead of spending millions on christophobic bigot billboards, rather build an orphanage or set up a mission to africa, or maybe shelter the homless?
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Gay Rights

#17

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:16 pm

Proinsias wrote:
Murray wrote:Yes your right it does pre-date christ and it does exist in islam and judaism, that is where you stop being correct.
Read up on leviticus law so you can understand where jews stand on the topic
Or read up on sharia law to understand how islam is.

The fact is marriage is a religous institution, it is performed to bond man and women under god.

If marriage is not religous may I ask why so many atheist get civil unions (all the same benefits of marriage) instead of being married.

I assume the answer should be very clear to you.

And explain this, why right do gays have to sue churches for millions of dollars because they stick to their beliefs? No answer to that I suppose correct? Do you agree with how the government allows gays to sue churches that stick to their beliefs? You know the churches with hospitals, orphanages, charitiys, missions, schools, and shelters all over the world.
Claiming ownership is not the same as having ownership. Try quoting scripture in a divorce case. The fact is not that marriage includes God, the fact is that some people think it does. There are no shortage of godless marriages, does it matter much if some of these are homosexual marriages? I'm not really bothered if a Christian doesn't consider me married as a personal view but if a Christian doctor tells me I don't have legal rights in life or death medical decisions regarding my wife as his views prevent him from treating me as married then there's gonna be trouble.

I would venture that many atheists enter into civil partnerships due to the religious baggage that marriage carries in many peoples minds. I know some who would like to get married and do their part in further divorcing religions grip on what defines marriage. I'm in Scotland and religion free marriage is fairly easy to come by and rather popular, I've got one! If marriage was a religious institution and getting married meant a religious ceremony I suppose I would have opted for something akin to a civil parntership but here I'm free to enter into a legal and social marriage without any religion. If marriage is religious, I'm not married.

Why do gays have the right to sue Churches? perhaps because the US legal systems takes claims regarding discrimination seriously. If you do a job then you abide by the law of the land, if religious views prevent one from carrying out job requirements without discriminating against perfectly legal aspects of the job then one should get another job. I occasionally have to register marriages and divorces as part of my job, if I refused to update someone's record to married as I did not believe the marriage was Christian and from God then I would expect not to be doing my job for long.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I dont think anyone here is denying them the same legal rights as straight people, but the concept of "marriage" is a Christain/Judeo one meaning the union of a man and woman. Homosexuals in my country can have a civil union and will have all the same legal right's as myself and my wife, atheists also if they so choose can have a civil union. The act of a homosexual marriage directly mocks and riddicules what i believe and hurts me deeply, why does their right to use our ideal out weight my right to practice my religion freely. Why are they arguing about a word that hold's no meaning to them and directly affects people for who it does hold meaning, from a Christain standpoint i know the answer but if i was to look at it objectively they would have no claim on marriage and should settle for a civil union or call it somthing completely different.
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The concept of marriage is not a Judeo/Christian one, it's common to all societies. Saying it is a Judeo/Christian concept doesn't prove that it is.
Why are they arguing about a word which means nothing to them? they aren't. It does mean something to them, admittedly it may not match your meaning and that meaning me not have much in the way of religion or God about it.
Murray wrote:Most recently every single catholic orphanage in iowa shut down because a court ordered them to give children to gays and having faith in their religon and practicing it, they refused and thus got shut down. Hundreds of children, no home anymore
Hundreds of children with no homes thanks to people standing up for their faith. They were given the choice and they chose to abandon the children. Better no homes at all than some gay households seems pretty unreasonable to me but each to their own.
Still doesnt answer the question of why their right out weights my right.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Murray
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Re: Gay Rights

#18

Post by Murray » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:18 pm

Still doesnt answer the question of why their right out weights my right.
I cannot really answer that....
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Re: Gay Rights

#19

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:22 pm

haha i wasnt talking to you murray :lol:
And also i would like to add, God created marriage so yes it is a Judeo/Christain ideal, just because you dont believe God exists doesnt make it so.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Gay Rights

#20

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:28 pm

Proinsias wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:If they want me to respect their rights maybe they should respect mine first, marriage is a Christain concept and should remain so
Marriage predates Christ. It is not a Christian concept any more than it is a Islamic, Judaic, legal or social concept. You do not have ownership.
Im sorry God pre-dates all, it is his concept and we adhere to his objective morality.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Gay Rights

#21

Post by Murray » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:35 am

Im sorry God pre-dates all, it is his concept and we adhere to his objective morality.
Amen
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Re: Gay Rights

#22

Post by Proinsias » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:46 pm

Murray wrote:Does this not violate your favorite term "seperation of church and state"?

You said it yourself, you do not need a church to perform a marriage, so then why bother? What other purpose other than trying to shove it in their face does forcing a church to perform a marriage serve?

These gays made the choice to go to the church to become married the church refused, that should be it. But they got the aclu to file a claim and the church got sued millions, retracted their missions in africa, and went bankrupt and the gays were just happy to be swimming in millions.

The government should have no rule over legal religous practice, the bible is clear, we are not to marry gays, so why can the government force us to change this?
Of course the government should have legal rule over religious practice, religion is not a get out clause for breaking the laws of the land.
I'm not particularly passionate about the separation of Church and state, I'm the UK and we've got a partially elected atheist deputy Prime Minister and Archbishops of the Church of England sitting unelected in the House of Lords. From the Independent newspaper a while back:
Here's a Trivial Pursuit question with an answer that isn't at all trivial. Which two nations still reserve places in their parliaments for unelected religious clerics, who then get an automatic say in writing the laws the country's citizens must obey? The answer is Iran... and Britain.

Is there a possibility of the Church pulling away from the legal side of marriage? I may be wrong but from what I gather those performing marriages within the church are also performing a legal service and this is where the issue is. Could the church stick to "Christian marriage" and leave legal weddings to the state. Could you go to church and get married in the eyes of God in a hetero relationship but it carries no legal weight, a legal marriage would be a separate event. Would there be an issue if Christian marriage was between two opposite sex couples and God but carried no legal weight in society, much in the way that a couple can get married in a pagan ceremony before the legal age of consent - they can go around with matching blessed pagan charms on saying they are married but the government won't recognise the marriage.
Murray wrote:Why not look at it in the sence that if the government (which should have no regulation over a catholic orphanage by the way)
Of course they should have regulation over a Catholic orphanage. An orphanage needs to meet legal requirements. They need to treat children and prospective parents fairly, they need to ensure hygiene laws are met, relevant checks are completed, paperwork is done etc. In light of recent reports it seems that stricter regulation of Catholic establishments caring for and educating children should be more heavily regulated by the government than letting them just get on with it.
Having a crucifix on the door does not mean you can do whatever you wish with those inside, and ignore the laws of the land.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Still doesnt answer the question of why their right out weights my right.
What right? The right to demand the state keeps legal definitions in line with that of your chosen religious book?
Why does your right to define marriage supersede that of a homosexual atheist?
Danieltwotwenty wrote:haha i wasnt talking to you murray :lol:
And also i would like to add, God created marriage so yes it is a Judeo/Christain ideal, just because you dont believe God exists doesnt make it so.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Im sorry God pre-dates all, it is his concept and we adhere to his objective morality.
No need to be sorry. Again simply saying that it's God's concept and that that God is the Christian God doesn't help much.

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Re: Gay Rights

#23

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:57 am

hi
Last time i checked this was a Christian site that people can come to ask genuine questions and get a Christian response from a Christian point of view.
I have expressed my view from a Christian perspective, what more do you require?..... as far as i am concerned it is God's creation and he has precedent and ownership over marriage. Homosexual marriage is outside of what God constitutes as marriage so it is morally wrong period.
Your Friend
Daniel
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Gay Rights

#24

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:01 am

Also i would like to add, God loves all his children who are living in sin that includes myself and homosexuals and everyone else. No sin is greater than another, my sin is no less than theirs.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Gay Rights

#25

Post by Murray » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:47 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:hi
Last time i checked this was a Christian site that people can come to ask genuine questions and get a Christian response from a Christian point of view.
I have expressed my view from a Christian perspective, what more do you require?..... as far as i am concerned it is God's creation and he has precedent and ownership over marriage. Homosexual marriage is outside of what God constitutes as marriage so it is morally wrong period.
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You are on a spot on streak :clap:
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Re: Gay Rights

#26

Post by kmr » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:30 pm

I personally am not much fond of "legal marriage", seeing as marriage is a religious institution and it is being treated as a legal contract. If civil unions have the same benefits as marriage, just get that as opposed to striking up all this fuss. And if my church were to refuse marriage to a gay couple, then they should just go somewhere else, or get it done "legally", or whatever they want, instead of suing the church. Marriage by definition is the union of a man and a woman. If a gay couple wanted a union, they should just get a civil union. I can't see what purpose they would have for wanting a marriage, especially if it does not correspond with the religion it is endorsed by... y:-?
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Re: Gay Rights

#27

Post by Murray » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:13 am

kmr wrote:I personally am not much fond of "legal marriage", seeing as marriage is a religious institution and it is being treated as a legal contract. If civil unions have the same benefits as marriage, just get that as opposed to striking up all this fuss. And if my church were to refuse marriage to a gay couple, then they should just go somewhere else, or get it done "legally", or whatever they want, instead of suing the church. Marriage by definition is the union of a man and a woman. If a gay couple wanted a union, they should just get a civil union. I can't see what purpose they would have for wanting a marriage, especially if it does not correspond with the religion it is endorsed by... y:-?

I'm not sure why gays care so much, maybe they just want to stir up a ruccus. Honestly, if I was gay I would just get a civil union.
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Re: Gay Rights

#28

Post by Murray » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:13 am

kmr wrote:I personally am not much fond of "legal marriage", seeing as marriage is a religious institution and it is being treated as a legal contract. If civil unions have the same benefits as marriage, just get that as opposed to striking up all this fuss. And if my church were to refuse marriage to a gay couple, then they should just go somewhere else, or get it done "legally", or whatever they want, instead of suing the church. Marriage by definition is the union of a man and a woman. If a gay couple wanted a union, they should just get a civil union. I can't see what purpose they would have for wanting a marriage, especially if it does not correspond with the religion it is endorsed by... y:-?

I'm not sure why gays care so much, maybe they just want to stir up a ruccus. Honestly, if I was gay I would just get a civil union.
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Re: Gay Rights

#29

Post by Proinsias » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:24 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:hi
Last time i checked this was a Christian site that people can come to ask genuine questions and get a Christian response from a Christian point of view.
I have expressed my view from a Christian perspective, what more do you require?..... as far as i am concerned it is God's creation and he has precedent and ownership over marriage. Homosexual marriage is outside of what God constitutes as marriage so it is morally wrong period.
Your Friend
Daniel
I don't require any more, just trying to give another perspective. There's a lot of asking why and as it seems to make relative sense to me I thought I'd try and explain my thinking. You say as far as you're concerned it is God's creation and God has precedent and ownership but we live in societies compromising of many different views of God(s) and marriage and the courts attempt to ensure there is some sort of equality in treatment of people with differing views. If Muslims truly believe Sharia law should determine what is legal and what is not should we not prosecute them when they break our laws as long as they stayed true to Sharia law?

The foremost of the unelected religious clerics sitting in the House of Lords helping write laws is the Archbishop of Canterbury who wrote:
"I concluded that an active sexual relationship between two people of the same sex might therefore reflect the love of God in a way comparable to marriage, if and only if it had the about it the same character of absolute covenanted faithfulness."

It's not just angry gay people and atheists taking the question seriously.
Last edited by Proinsias on Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gay Rights

#30

Post by Proinsias » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:50 pm

Murray wrote:I'm not sure why gays care so much, maybe they just want to stir up a ruccus. Honestly, if I was gay I would just get a civil union.
And if I was Christian I'd just let them get married in Churches.

I can see why they are annoyed. Marriage is something that traditionally symbolises love, devotion and lifelong commitment. A civil partnership evokes about as much romance as a tenancy agreement.

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