Gay Rights

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
Post Reply
User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Gay Rights

#1

Post by Murray » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:29 am

What RIGHT exactly are they fighting for? How are they considered a civil rights movement? It shocks me. They have always had the right to vote, they have always been free, they have always been employed equally, so why do they cry injustice? Simple, this is not a civil rights movement , it is a in your face, accept us even if you disagree with our lifestyle movement. Why else do they have parades where members commit sodomy in front of children? It is to simply shock and offend not to gain rights.

Some gays would argue marriage Rights correct? Ok, that’s fine, why do atheist not get married then? Many atheist get civil unions (which have all, and I mean all, the same rights as marriage). Marriage is a religious institution and the government has absolutely no right to mandate churches to marry gays. Look at churches that have been sued for millions of dollars, rich churches that have missions, orphanages, and hospitals, all of a sudden closed because of a civil law suit because the stuck to their beliefs. How many adoption centers have been closed by the catholic church rather than give married gays children? Its horrible, this movement does nothing but shock, offend, and even degrade homosexuals. Even as one who is generally light on the topic of homosexuality, looking in to this movement it has really changed my view on its legitimacy.
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Gay Rights

#2

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:50 pm

Hi Murray
I guess really they are arguing over an ideal, they want to be viewed as having equal right as everyone else.
I am happy for them to have all the same rights as i do, but i do find it highly offensive for them wanting marriage.
If they want me to respect their rights maybe they should respect mine first, marriage is a Christain concept and should remain so.
At the end of the day all they are really arguing about is a word, really you have to ask yourself who is really behind this movement.

Your Friend in Christ
Daniel
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#3

Post by Murray » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:27 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Hi Murray
I guess really they are arguing over an ideal, they want to be viewed as having equal right as everyone else.
I am happy for them to have all the same rights as i do, but i do find it highly offensive for them wanting marriage.
If they want me to respect their rights maybe they should respect mine first, marriage is a Christain concept and should remain so.
At the end of the day all they are really arguing about is a word, really you have to ask yourself who is really behind this movement.

Your Friend in Christ
Daniel


Right on the dot
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

User avatar
MarcusOfLycia
Senior Member
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:03 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: West Michigan, United States
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#4

Post by MarcusOfLycia » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:46 pm

The question, if it goes to the gay marriage topic, really gets complicated. In a society not governed by any morality that is not just popular/liberal opinion, what is to stop polygomy, beastiality, or pedophilia from becoming completely legal systems of human sexuality? There really isn't anything.

By not having solid limits on what constitutes normal sexual behavior, the greatest limit of all is placed on it: lack of self-restraint. That's when all hell breaks loose... and I'm hoping some sanity finds its way into society before then.
-- Josh

“When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within” C.H. Spurgeon

1st Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel””not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"

dorkmaster
Recognized Member
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:05 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Gay Rights

#5

Post by dorkmaster » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:09 am

This could almost spark a debate on objective morality, just saying.

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#6

Post by Murray » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:02 pm

dorkmaster wrote:This could almost spark a debate on objective morality, just saying.

If they respond directly and on topic to my original post it shoudn't
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

Proinsias
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:09 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: Scotland
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Gay Rights

#7

Post by Proinsias » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:51 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:If they want me to respect their rights maybe they should respect mine first, marriage is a Christain concept and should remain so
Marriage predates Christ. It is not a Christian concept any more than it is a Islamic, Judaic, legal or social concept. You do not have ownership.

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#8

Post by Murray » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:00 pm

^

Yes your right it does pre-date christ and it does exist in islam and judaism, that is where you stop being correct.
Read up on leviticus law so you can understand where jews stand on the topic
Or read up on sharia law to understand how islam is.

The fact is marriage is a religous institution, it is performed to bond man and women under god.

If marriage is not religous may I ask why so many atheist get civil unions (all the same benefits of marriage) instead of being married.

I assume the answer should be very clear to you.

And explain this, why right do gays have to sue churches for millions of dollars because they stick to their beliefs? No answer to that I suppose correct? Do you agree with how the government allows gays to sue churches that stick to their beliefs? You know the churches with hospitals, orphanages, charitiys, missions, schools, and shelters all over the world.
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#9

Post by Murray » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:01 pm

^

Yes your right it does pre-date christ and it does exist in islam and judaism, that is where you stop being correct.
Read up on leviticus law so you can understand where jews stand on the topic
Or read up on sharia law to understand how islam is.

The fact is marriage is a religous institution, it is performed to bond man and women under god.

If marriage is not religous may I ask why so many atheist get civil unions (all the same benefits of marriage) instead of being married.

I assume the answer should be very clear to you.

And explain this, why right do gays have to sue churches for millions of dollars because they stick to their beliefs? No answer to that I suppose correct? Do you agree with how the government allows gays to sue churches that stick to their beliefs? You know the churches with hospitals, orphanages, charitiys, missions, schools, and shelters all over the world.
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#10

Post by Murray » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:01 pm

^

Yes your right it does pre-date christ and it does exist in islam and judaism, that is where you stop being correct.
Read up on leviticus law so you can understand where jews stand on the topic
Or read up on sharia law to understand how islam is.

The fact is marriage is a religous institution, it is performed to bond man and women under god.

If marriage is not religous may I ask why so many atheist get civil unions (all the same benefits of marriage) instead of being married.

I assume the answer should be very clear to you.

And explain this, why right do gays have to sue churches for millions of dollars because they stick to their beliefs? No answer to that I suppose correct? Do you agree with how the government allows gays to sue churches that stick to their beliefs? You know the churches with hospitals, orphanages, charitiys, missions, schools, and shelters all over the world.
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

Jonouchi Katsuya
Established Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:27 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Gay Rights

#11

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:17 pm

Gay men and women are fighting for legal recognition for marriage NOT religious recognition. The reason why it is important to correctly identify this is because Churches CAN marry anyone they want with no legal confirmation (which is why some marry dogs to each other it is kind strange!). It is just a ceremony. Not legally binding in it of itself. Churches can keep gay marriage out of the church as much as they want. Nothing says you must use someone religious for it to be marriage (though Christian weddings are pretty!).

However, when we speak of the legal contract of marriage, it would be against other laws we currently have on file in the United States to not allow two people to enter into a consensual contract. The constitution protects people from experiencing bias due to race, religion, sex, etc. Notice the word "sex". And I mean that as gender.

Now what prevents people from marrying animals? Well animals can't give consent. Children? Nope. They can't give consent so why are you worrying about this?

What about multiple people? Well, marriage is a contract between two people. (though we are assuming these are consenting adults... I guess why not? it is in the bible and smiled on by God even... sooooo)

So I really don't see the big deal. I am happily married to my husband and I don't see how someone else getting married and being happy would make my marriage suck or something.
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Gay Rights

#12

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:15 pm

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:Gay men and women are fighting for legal recognition for marriage NOT religious recognition. The reason why it is important to correctly identify this is because Churches CAN marry anyone they want with no legal confirmation (which is why some marry dogs to each other it is kind strange!). It is just a ceremony. Not legally binding in it of itself. Churches can keep gay marriage out of the church as much as they want. Nothing says you must use someone religious for it to be marriage (though Christian weddings are pretty!).

However, when we speak of the legal contract of marriage, it would be against other laws we currently have on file in the United States to not allow two people to enter into a consensual contract. The constitution protects people from experiencing bias due to race, religion, sex, etc. Notice the word "sex". And I mean that as gender.

Now what prevents people from marrying animals? Well animals can't give consent. Children? Nope. They can't give consent so why are you worrying about this?

What about multiple people? Well, marriage is a contract between two people. (though we are assuming these are consenting adults... I guess why not? it is in the bible and smiled on by God even... sooooo)

So I really don't see the big deal. I am happily married to my husband and I don't see how someone else getting married and being happy would make my marriage suck or something.
I dont think anyone here is denying them the same legal rights as straight people, but the concept of "marriage" is a Christain/Judeo one meaning the union of a man and woman. Homosexuals in my country can have a civil union and will have all the same legal right's as myself and my wife, atheists also if they so choose can have a civil union. The act of a homosexual marriage directly mocks and riddicules what i believe and hurts me deeply, why does their right to use our ideal out weight my right to practice my religion freely. Why are they arguing about a word that hold's no meaning to them and directly affects people for who it does hold meaning, from a Christain standpoint i know the answer but if i was to look at it objectively they would have no claim on marriage and should settle for a civil union or call it somthing completely different.
Your Friend in Christ
Daniel
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#13

Post by Murray » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:46 am

Churches can keep gay marriage out of the church as much as they want. Nothing says you must use someone religious for it to be marriage (though Christian weddings are pretty!).

That is flat out false. Take for example that church in california, a rich one with missions in africa, refused to perform a gay marrage, sued for millions, bankrupt, no more missions to africa, this will be common place soon. Do some research to states that legalize gay marriage, its awful what they do to churches.

Most recently every single catholic orphanage in iowa shut down because a court ordered them to give children to gays and having faith in their religon and practicing it, they refused and thus got shut down. Hundreds of children, no home anymore
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

Proinsias
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:09 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: Scotland
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Gay Rights

#14

Post by Proinsias » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:38 pm

Murray wrote:Yes your right it does pre-date christ and it does exist in islam and judaism, that is where you stop being correct.
Read up on leviticus law so you can understand where jews stand on the topic
Or read up on sharia law to understand how islam is.

The fact is marriage is a religous institution, it is performed to bond man and women under god.

If marriage is not religous may I ask why so many atheist get civil unions (all the same benefits of marriage) instead of being married.

I assume the answer should be very clear to you.

And explain this, why right do gays have to sue churches for millions of dollars because they stick to their beliefs? No answer to that I suppose correct? Do you agree with how the government allows gays to sue churches that stick to their beliefs? You know the churches with hospitals, orphanages, charitiys, missions, schools, and shelters all over the world.
Claiming ownership is not the same as having ownership. Try quoting scripture in a divorce case. The fact is not that marriage includes God, the fact is that some people think it does. There are no shortage of godless marriages, does it matter much if some of these are homosexual marriages? I'm not really bothered if a Christian doesn't consider me married as a personal view but if a Christian doctor tells me I don't have legal rights in life or death medical decisions regarding my wife as his views prevent him from treating me as married then there's gonna be trouble.

I would venture that many atheists enter into civil partnerships due to the religious baggage that marriage carries in many peoples minds. I know some who would like to get married and do their part in further divorcing religions grip on what defines marriage. I'm in Scotland and religion free marriage is fairly easy to come by and rather popular, I've got one! If marriage was a religious institution and getting married meant a religious ceremony I suppose I would have opted for something akin to a civil parntership but here I'm free to enter into a legal and social marriage without any religion. If marriage is religious, I'm not married.

Why do gays have the right to sue Churches? perhaps because the US legal systems takes claims regarding discrimination seriously. If you do a job then you abide by the law of the land, if religious views prevent one from carrying out job requirements without discriminating against perfectly legal aspects of the job then one should get another job. I occasionally have to register marriages and divorces as part of my job, if I refused to update someone's record to married as I did not believe the marriage was Christian and from God then I would expect not to be doing my job for long.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:I dont think anyone here is denying them the same legal rights as straight people, but the concept of "marriage" is a Christain/Judeo one meaning the union of a man and woman. Homosexuals in my country can have a civil union and will have all the same legal right's as myself and my wife, atheists also if they so choose can have a civil union. The act of a homosexual marriage directly mocks and riddicules what i believe and hurts me deeply, why does their right to use our ideal out weight my right to practice my religion freely. Why are they arguing about a word that hold's no meaning to them and directly affects people for who it does hold meaning, from a Christain standpoint i know the answer but if i was to look at it objectively they would have no claim on marriage and should settle for a civil union or call it somthing completely different.
Your Friend in Christ
Daniel
The concept of marriage is not a Judeo/Christian one, it's common to all societies. Saying it is a Judeo/Christian concept doesn't prove that it is.
Why are they arguing about a word which means nothing to them? they aren't. It does mean something to them, admittedly it may not match your meaning and that meaning me not have much in the way of religion or God about it.
Murray wrote:Most recently every single catholic orphanage in iowa shut down because a court ordered them to give children to gays and having faith in their religon and practicing it, they refused and thus got shut down. Hundreds of children, no home anymore
Hundreds of children with no homes thanks to people standing up for their faith. They were given the choice and they chose to abandon the children. Better no homes at all than some gay households seems pretty unreasonable to me but each to their own.

User avatar
Murray
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Williston, North Dakota
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: Gay Rights

#15

Post by Murray » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:56 pm

Why do gays have the right to sue Churches? perhaps because the US legal systems takes claims regarding discrimination seriously. If you do a job then you abide by the law of the land, if religious views prevent one from carrying out job requirements without discriminating against perfectly legal aspects of the job then one should get another job. I occasionally have to register marriages and divorces as part of my job, if I refused to update someone's record to married as I did not believe the marriage was Christian and from God then I would expect not to be doing my job for long.

Does this not violate your favorite term "seperation of church and state"?

You said it yourself, you do not need a church to perform a marriage, so then why bother? What other purpose other than trying to shove it in their face does forcing a church to perform a marriage serve?

These gays made the choice to go to the church to become married the church refused, that should be it. But they got the aclu to file a claim and the church got sued millions, retracted their missions in africa, and went bankrupt and the gays were just happy to be swimming in millions.

The government should have no rule over legal religous practice, the bible is clear, we are not to marry gays, so why can the government force us to change this?
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

Post Reply