False positives/negatives

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touchingcloth
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False positives/negatives

#1

Post by touchingcloth » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:53 pm

Suppose you have two systems of justice; one results in 5% of innocent people who are tried in court being wrongly found guilty and sent to prison - the other results in 5% of guilty people being wrongly found innocent and set free. All other things being equal, which system would you implement?

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Re: False positives/negatives

#2

Post by B. W. » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:54 pm

touchingcloth wrote:Suppose you have two systems of justice; one results in 5% of innocent people who are tried in court being wrongly found guilty and sent to prison - the other results in 5% of guilty people being wrongly found innocent and set free. All other things being equal, which system would you implement?

Now there were two Martians in a crowded Galactic bar - one said his glass was half full and the other said his was half empty. Then a third walked by and said - what's a glass?

Which of the three were implementing good judgment?
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Re: False positives/negatives

#3

Post by Ngakunui » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:38 pm

I would much prefer a few guilty people being let loose, than a few innocent people being found guilty. For reasons easily notable in history. But above that, I'd prefer the judicial system to be perfect instead... which it won't.

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ageofknowledge
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Re: False positives/negatives

#4

Post by ageofknowledge » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:55 pm

Ngakunui wrote:I would much prefer a few guilty people being let loose, than a few innocent people being found guilty. For reasons easily notable in history. But above that, I'd prefer the judicial system to be perfect instead... which it won't.
What if they are Nation of Islam death angels hell bent on a mission to kill 9 men or 5 women or 4 children to get their wings (note: kidnapping and bringing victims into the temple to butcher at death angel meetings do not count toward wings and after they get their wings they continue murdering as Allah "moves them")? Would you then? What if we stipulated that people like these would be let loose in your neighborhood?

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Re: False positives/negatives

#5

Post by qqMOARpewpew » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:44 am

ageofknowledge wrote:
Ngakunui wrote:I would much prefer a few guilty people being let loose, than a few innocent people being found guilty. For reasons easily notable in history. But above that, I'd prefer the judicial system to be perfect instead... which it won't.
What if they are Nation of Islam death angels hell bent on a mission to kill 9 men or 5 women or 4 children to get their wings (note: kidnapping and bringing victims into the temple to butcher at death angel meetings do not count toward wings and after they get their wings they continue murdering as Allah "moves them")? Would you then? What if we stipulated that people like these would be let loose in your neighborhood?
Or your child gets thrown in jail with them.
You don’t look out there for god, something in the sky, you look in you.


Things are as they are. Looking out into it the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.

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Re: False positives/negatives

#6

Post by ageofknowledge » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:54 am

qqMOARpewpew wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
Ngakunui wrote:I would much prefer a few guilty people being let loose, than a few innocent people being found guilty. For reasons easily notable in history. But above that, I'd prefer the judicial system to be perfect instead... which it won't.
What if they are Nation of Islam death angels hell bent on a mission to kill 9 men or 5 women or 4 children to get their wings (note: kidnapping and bringing victims into the temple to butcher at death angel meetings do not count toward wings and after they get their wings they continue murdering as Allah "moves them")? Would you then? What if we stipulated that people like these would be let loose in your neighborhood?
Or your child gets thrown in jail with them.
our penitentiary system is in dire need of reform. Many countries manage to create safe jails and prisons and many don't. We're one of the countries that do not unfortunately.

The point though we're making here isn't that taking a criminal and putting them with other criminals (if your child committed crimes deserving of going to jail or prison that makes them a criminal by the standard dictionary definition*) is always a bad thing, because it certainly is not, but that letting unrepentant actual criminals free into your neighborhood very well might be.

Tell me, do you have much experience with actual unrepentant criminals? I went to Victory Outreach for four years. The members of Victory Outreach were wonderful people. Ex-criminals whom God had changed. But in the business of traveling their neighborhoods with them I met very real criminals. People who would rob and assault you (or worse) based on their "personal truth" regarding you. Meaning, how you looked to them and how they felt about you. I will take you to visit some of these neighborhoods in LA with myself and a sponsor from Victory Outreach if you like. I can set it up. The sponsor is necessary so that we exit in the same condition we entered the neighborhood in. We'll let them get a look at you and see what their "personal truth" tells them. Deal? I want to see if you're the kind who talks on internet forums or the kind who will put their money where there mouth is so to speak. You'll be safe but I guarantee very respectful around these guys. I think it would be a good experience for you. Start to snap you out of the dream world you're living in.

*Main Entry: 1crim·i·nal
Pronunciation: \ˈkri-mə-nəl, ˈkrim-nəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French criminal, from Late Latin criminalis, from Latin crimin-, crimen crime
Date: 15th century
1 : relating to, involving, or being a crime <criminal neglect>
2 : relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime <criminal statistics> <brought criminal action>
3 : guilty of crime; also : of or befitting a criminal <a criminal mind>
4 : disgraceful
— crim·i·nal·ly adverb

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Re: False positives/negatives

#7

Post by qqMOARpewpew » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:44 am

ageofknowledge wrote:
qqMOARpewpew wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
Ngakunui wrote:I would much prefer a few guilty people being let loose, than a few innocent people being found guilty. For reasons easily notable in history. But above that, I'd prefer the judicial system to be perfect instead... which it won't.
What if they are Nation of Islam death angels hell bent on a mission to kill 9 men or 5 women or 4 children to get their wings (note: kidnapping and bringing victims into the temple to butcher at death angel meetings do not count toward wings and after they get their wings they continue murdering as Allah "moves them")? Would you then? What if we stipulated that people like these would be let loose in your neighborhood?
Or your child gets thrown in jail with them.
our penitentiary system is in dire need of reform. Many countries manage to create safe jails and prisons and many don't. We're one of the countries that do not unfortunately.

The point though we're making here isn't that taking a criminal and putting them with other criminals (if your child committed crimes deserving of going to jail or prison that makes them a criminal by the standard dictionary definition*) is always a bad thing, because it certainly is not, but that letting unrepentant actual criminals free into your neighborhood very well might be.

Tell me, do you have much experience with actual unrepentant criminals? I went to Victory Outreach for four years. The members of Victory Outreach were wonderful people. Ex-criminals whom God had changed. But in the business of traveling their neighborhoods with them I met very real criminals. People who would rob and assault you (or worse) based on their "personal truth" regarding you. Meaning, how you looked to them and how they felt about you. I will take you to visit some of these neighborhoods in LA with myself and a sponsor from Victory Outreach if you like. I can set it up. The sponsor is necessary so that we exit in the same condition we entered the neighborhood in. We'll let them get a look at you and see what their "personal truth" tells them. Deal? I want to see if you're the kind who talks on internet forums or the kind who will put their money where there mouth is so to speak. You'll be safe but I guarantee very respectful around these guys. I think it would be a good experience for you. Start to snap you out of the dream world you're living in.

*Main Entry: 1crim·i·nal
Pronunciation: \ˈkri-mə-nəl, ˈkrim-nəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French criminal, from Late Latin criminalis, from Latin crimin-, crimen crime
Date: 15th century
1 : relating to, involving, or being a crime <criminal neglect>
2 : relating to crime or to the prosecution of suspects in a crime <criminal statistics> <brought criminal action>
3 : guilty of crime; also : of or befitting a criminal <a criminal mind>
4 : disgraceful
— crim·i·nal·ly adverb
wow, way to ignore my post. Would you rather one of those criminals be in your city, or your child in there with all the viciousness you just described. Also keep on topic we're not discussing personal truth I was jus trying to keep this thread on topic.
You don’t look out there for god, something in the sky, you look in you.


Things are as they are. Looking out into it the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.

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Re: False positives/negatives

#8

Post by ageofknowledge » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

I'm able to see a false characterization about me (I ignored your post when in reality I responded to it with a post of my own) and then you ignoring most of what I said including my generous offer (which is sincere by the way).

After that, I'm unable to figure out whatever else it is that you are trying to communicate except for a strange question asking me if I would rather be a criminal out of prison or a child in a violent prison (not all prisons are violent... many level 1 prisons don't even have fences and inmates are on the honor system and they don't actually put children in violent adult prisons they put them in juvenile detention centers which are much better managed with an emphasis on rehabilitation all of which seems to have escaped you as you focused in on my assertion we need to overhaul our penal system to make higher level prisons safer).

As an intelligent educated individual, I can say that your last post makes little sense (though I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you of course), so I have to ask you to stop and focus for a minute and try again to communicate your thoughts in a manner that others can understand more clearly. I'm not a good mind reader and neither are you. I look forward to reading whatever it is you're trying to say if you will but take the time to construct readable understandable messages properly and include enough content to make them meaningful. Don't worry, you can continue to be an infantile sarcastic know-it-all. I would never try to take baby's rattle away. Lol.. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Re: False positives/negatives

#9

Post by qqMOARpewpew » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:19 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:I'm able to see a false characterization about me (I ignored your post when in reality I responded to it with a post of my own) and then you ignoring most of what I said including my generous offer (which is sincere by the way).

After that, I'm unable to figure out whatever else it is that you are trying to communicate except for a strange question asking me if I would rather be a criminal out of prison or a child in a violent prison (not all prisons are violent... many level 1 prisons don't even have fences and inmates are on the honor system and they don't actually put children in violent adult prisons they put them in juvenile detention centers which are much better managed with an emphasis on rehabilitation all of which seems to have escaped you as you focused in on my assertion we need to overhaul our penal system to make higher level prisons safer).

As an intelligent educated individual, I can say that your last post makes little sense (though I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you of course), so I have to ask you to stop and focus for a minute and try again to communicate your thoughts in a manner that others can understand more clearly. I'm not a good mind reader and neither are you. I look forward to reading whatever it is you're trying to say if you will but take the time to construct readable understandable messages properly and include enough content to make them meaningful. Don't worry, you can continue to be an infantile sarcastic know-it-all. I would never try to take baby's rattle away. Lol.. Thank you for your cooperation.
Your hypothetical child is 20 and is found guilty of murder (and he didn't do it).

I would not like to deal with those kinds of criminals I have dealt with lesser cleptos and gang bangers and would not like to deal with their more dangerous counterparts if that anwsers your question. I am extremely non-violent I hate fighting, and would only do so to defend myself or a friend in need.
You don’t look out there for god, something in the sky, you look in you.


Things are as they are. Looking out into it the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.

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