Sexual Abuse

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Mastermind
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#16

Post by Mastermind » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:27 am

Seeing how i am one of the few people who believe in redemption, I will not pass judgement unless I know for fact what happened. If he truly is sorry and has stopped, I see no reason to torment him further as his own guilt is probably punishment enough. If he hasn't stopped, however, bring down the hammer.

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#17

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:31 am

salt wrote:If she was a minor I'd say report it no matter what. But since she's 21 she's certainly an adult and must be treated as one by you even if her father doesn't.

On that note however, since she is still under his mental influence, is she still living at home or does she have some free will or freedom of movement? No matter what, I'd do some research, and find a counselor (a true Christian organization!) and urge her to go. Take her there yourself. Ideally, check with a local crisis pregnancy center, they deal with sexual abuse often and have resources already at hand. I personally don't feel very qualified to give you much more advice than that which I've said. People who work in this field daily are much more knowledgable in the nuances involved in this situation. Hopefully you are not in a small town.
Well, I have hooked her up with a professional, Christian counselor will do counsel for free but she will not go. She says she does not need to but then turns around and tells me how it causes problems in her life. I believe she knows what to do but she is afraid her own father and other family members who know and helped cover this up will turn on her.

She no longer lives with her father. He asked her to leave his home when she was 18 because she "got on his nerves." She had no place to go so my wife and I took her in. Her father basically has nothing to do with her until she starts to believe she should report the abuser and then he swoops in and tells her how much he cares for her, does not want to see her go through all of it again, etc.

We are not in a very small town but this involves plenty of family and friends who run in the same circle. Many of which look at this abuser (not knowing what he has done) as some awesome Christian. It is a very delicate situation. I do not want to run the church or the church's reputation through the mud but at the same time this guy walking around with full access to children (including his own).

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#18

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:42 am

salt wrote:Also, we are called to obey the civil laws of the land in which we reside. I can't think of the verses right now, but Biblically this guy still needs to be brought to the civil courts. Go to your Bible and find the relevant scriptures to augment your case when you next speak with her.

Do you have a concordance? What version of the Bible does she use? You can go here and search http://bible.gospelcom.net/ I'm searching but so far no luck, had some close but not the scripture(s) I have in mind
I used scripture to convince her she should turn him in but then her father spoke with her and told her it has already been taken care of and I was wrong for bringing it back up. I spoke with them both at my home. What it boiled down to is him admitting he was wrong for not reporting it back in the day but now since so much time is passed it would be wrong to rehash it. He also used the "do not judge" position. Presently she refuses to speak with anyone other than her father about it because he told her it was the business of nobody else.

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#19

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:50 am

Mastermind wrote:Seeing how i am one of the few people who believe in redemption, I will not pass judgement unless I know for fact what happened. If he truly is sorry and has stopped, I see no reason to torment him further as his own guilt is probably punishment enough. If he hasn't stopped, however, bring down the hammer.
The problem is we do not know if he has stopped or not. Because he access to children without the parents knowing of his past he is not restricted in any way when dealing with children. In addition, when asked why he did it he says he does not know. I question that. First of all, he knows. We know he knows. Knowing he "groomed" other children we also know it goes beyond being attracted to this one child. He has a problem. That problem, in my opinion, cannot be dealt with unless he admits he has a problem. How do you get help for something you claim does not exist? As soon as he admits he has a problem (pedophilia?) then he can get help.

Please understand I do not take the position God could not have cured the guy. God can do that. But I figure he would just say, "God healed me" if that were the case. That is more believable than "I do not know."

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#20

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:05 am

Deborah wrote:I personally believe that the parents of the children should be warned, if this guy is still around their children. You can't keep people in the dark, they expect and trust their children will be safe. maybe they are safe, but the chance should never be taken that they are not.
I can say that from experience because the man who raped me as a child had done it before, but nobody bothered to warn my Parents, and he was never reported.
Deb, I agree. But how do I warn them? Normally I could write the pastor or another church leader about it but considering they know and think nothing about it, that is not an option. The Children's Department director is a member of my family and the sister of the victim and is brainwashed by these folks to believe everything is okay. Unlike many churches, this church has no policy on reporting child abuse or neglect. I wonder why? The same goes for the church the father of the victim pastors. I know for a fact the South Carolina Baptist Covention mailed every church they are affiliated with in the state a pamphlet on developing a plan to report child abuse (this following the Catholic Church's scenario). These two churches have no policy regarding child abuse and state whether they report the abuse depends on the person who is the abuser. If the person is a Christian then do not report. Instead ask them to repent and if they do, then fine.

I believe people/parents at that church need to know. But again, how can I let them know without causing a huge deal?

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#21

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:20 am

sofalogic wrote: Well, I have hooked her up with a professional, Christian counselor will do counsel for free but she will not go. She says she does not need to but then turns around and tells me how it causes problems in her life. I believe she knows what to do but she is afraid her own father and other family members who know and helped cover this up will turn on her.
Since she lives with you, can you somehow get the/a counselor to come over (dinner perhaps?) in a more personal, very casual way? The counseler might be able to open her up and get an assessment of the situation. No matter what happens with the abuser, she needs to find her own life. She needs to find, set and maintain boundaries between herself and her father. Have you ever read or heard of the book 'Boundaries' by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend? If she's not a reader, I think it's available as a book on tape too. Here's a description:
"When to say yes. When to say no. To take control of your life. Having clear boundaries is essential to maintaining a healthy, balanced lifestyle. Often, Christians focus so much on being loving and unselfish that they forget their own limits and limitations. Discover biblically based principles for finding appropriate emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual limits." If nothing else, you and your wife should read it because you can toss tidbits of counsel to her in normal conversation.

She is is desperate need for assistance. You two are so awesome to bring her into your home and give her so much help and love!
She no longer lives with her father. He asked her to leave his home when she was 18 because she "got on his nerves." She had no place to go so my wife and I took her in. Her father basically has nothing to do with her until she starts to believe she should report the abuser and then he swoops in and tells her how much he cares for her, does not want to see her go through all of it again, etc.
I have to say this, I'm sorry.... but what a jerk! How does he find out that she's thinking about it? I have this sinking feeling that she mentions it to him . . .
We are not in a very small town but this involves plenty of family and friends who run in the same circle. Many of which look at this abuser (not knowing what he has done) as some awesome Christian. It is a very delicate situation. I do not want to run the church or the church's reputation through the mud but at the same time this guy walking around with full access to children (including his own).

Yes it is a very delicate situation. You certainly are in a hard place as is she. Do you think his wife and (I forget the other relation), tend to watch him closely around the kids or do they blindly trust him.

I agree that yes, God could easily have cured him, but with other children involved... whew. What does the girl think? Is she worried about the kids? If so, do you think you can focus on her duty to protect them? This may sound radical, but maybe you could posit the possibility that she get counseling to heal her, and then begin doing youth work at that church to place herself in between -- a guardian angel so to speak. It may be best to not fous on her past but on the possibility of other children being subjected to her past and her present. (I'm just tossing things up in the air here, so bear with me) I'm trying visualize that sort of a change in the type of community you describe... may raise some eybrows, but if done in a logical, well though out way...

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#22

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:42 am

Mastermind wrote:Seeing how I am one of the few people who believe in redemption, I will not pass judgement unless I know for fact what happened. If he truly is sorry and has stopped, I see no reason to torment him further as his own guilt is probably punishment enough. If he hasn't stopped, however, bring down the hammer.


Just curious -- why do you say you are one of the few? (On this board, on this topic, in christianity?)

Admittedly, in this case, we all did jump in and seem to assume he's still at it. I'm not a catholic but I believe that confession of a crime is good for the soul. If he had confessed to his congregation, if he used this past sin to show God's power to change the sinner, then I'd say he's redeemed. But since he still hides it he's not to be trusted. Especially since he's in a position of power, leadership and control. He may be redeemed in Gods eyes, but hiding the truth taints the redemption in my point of view.

I know pastors that ensure they are never alone with a woman who is not his wife just to ensure no possible sense of impropriety can ever be construed. This pastor should distance himself from all children's ministry for the same reason.

sofalogic
He needs to be shown that he must preach a sermon on the sins of sexual molestation with an open confession to his congregation. This is the best Biblical way to show that he is fully relying on God's grace to ensure his pastoral leadership truly comes from God. To show that he is fully contrite and repenting. If the whole congregation ups and leaves, well so be it -- God's will.

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#23

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:27 am

salt wrote:
sofalogic wrote: Well, I have hooked her up with a professional, Christian counselor will do counsel for free but she will not go. She says she does not need to but then turns around and tells me how it causes problems in her life. I believe she knows what to do but she is afraid her own father and other family members who know and helped cover this up will turn on her.
Since she lives with you, can you somehow get the/a counselor to come over (dinner perhaps?) in a more personal, very casual way? The counseler might be able to open her up and get an assessment of the situation. No matter what happens with the abuser, she needs to find her own life. She needs to find, set and maintain boundaries between herself and her father. Have you ever read or heard of the book 'Boundaries' by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend? If she's not a reader, I think it's available as a book on tape too. Here's a description:
"When to say yes. When to say no. To take control of your life. Having clear boundaries is essential to maintaining a healthy, balanced lifestyle. Often, Christians focus so much on being loving and unselfish that they forget their own limits and limitations. Discover biblically based principles for finding appropriate emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual limits." If nothing else, you and your wife should read it because you can toss tidbits of counsel to her in normal conversation.

She is is desperate need for assistance. You two are so awesome to bring her into your home and give her so much help and love!
She no longer lives with her father. He asked her to leave his home when she was 18 because she "got on his nerves." She had no place to go so my wife and I took her in. Her father basically has nothing to do with her until she starts to believe she should report the abuser and then he swoops in and tells her how much he cares for her, does not want to see her go through all of it again, etc.
I have to say this, I'm sorry.... but what a jerk! How does he find out that she's thinking about it? I have this sinking feeling that she mentions it to him . . .
We are not in a very small town but this involves plenty of family and friends who run in the same circle. Many of which look at this abuser (not knowing what he has done) as some awesome Christian. It is a very delicate situation. I do not want to run the church or the church's reputation through the mud but at the same time this guy walking around with full access to children (including his own).

Yes it is a very delicate situation. You certainly are in a hard place as is she. Do you think his wife and (I forget the other relation), tend to watch him closely around the kids or do they blindly trust him.

I agree that yes, God could easily have cured him, but with other children involved... whew. What does the girl think? Is she worried about the kids? If so, do you think you can focus on her duty to protect them? This may sound radical, but maybe you could posit the possibility that she get counseling to heal her, and then begin doing youth work at that church to place herself in between -- a guardian angel so to speak. It may be best to not fous on her past but on the possibility of other children being subjected to her past and her present. (I'm just tossing things up in the air here, so bear with me) I'm trying visualize that sort of a change in the type of community you describe... may raise some eybrows, but if done in a logical, well though out way...
She no longer lives with me. She ended up getting pregnant, got married, and moved out. I tried the "think about other children" route but her father, the abuser, and other people who are involved in this cover up have her convinced he has not done it since and will never do it again. That may indeed be the case but what are the odds.

Before I found out this man was one of my good friends. I was even in his wedding. Although I want what I believe is best for my neice I also want what is best for him. What is best for him in my opinion is some sort of hindrance from being able to do this to other children. If he is confronted with this he just starts crying and asking for forgiveness. I just think he and the others involved have a misunderstanding of what forgiveness is. In my opinion, if he has or is molesting children then those that know and are in the position to do something about it are just as bad.

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#24

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:44 am

salt wrote: sofalogic
He needs to be shown that he must preach a sermon on the sins of sexual molestation with an open confession to his congregation. This is the best Biblical way to show that he is fully relying on God's grace to ensure his pastoral leadership truly comes from God. To show that he is fully contrite and repenting. If the whole congregation ups and leaves, well so be it -- God's will.
Let me clear up a few things. The father is a pastor of a church. The abuser is on staff as a media specialist or something like that at the church his "group" started. Two different churches. He claims he is called to work with kids. He was the youth minister at this church until several months ago. In the past he was also a missionary to Indonesia. His wife and sister help my other niece run the children's church. They allow him to work with the children at the church because they do not believe he would do it again. My niece has mentioned to me before she often questions his motives when observing him work with the children but then tells herself she needs to let it go and let God handle it.

Just for the record, my sister who was married to the father, struggled with this. She wanted to turn this guy in and it caused serious marriage problems between her and the father. At one point she was going to separate from him but then she came down with cancer and passed away. The father tells me she did not want to turn this guy in but I have talked to several of her close friends and they say she cried everyday not knowing what to do. I have caught my brother in law in several lies surrounding this. He claims he told several people who had children this man came in contact with. Not true. He claims this man received professional therapy for this problem. Not true. He claims he has talked to several other ministers and they all agreed he handled this biblically. Not true. At this point, he is telling lie after lie to keep this underwraps.

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#25

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:03 pm

Let me clear up a few things. The father is a pastor of a church. The abuser is on staff as a media specialist or something like that at the church his "group" started. Two different churches. He claims he is called to work with kids. He was the youth minister at this church until several months ago. In the past he was also a missionary to Indonesia. His wife and sister help my other niece run the children's church. They allow him to work with the children at the church because they do not believe he would do it again.
Part of me wants to say,"well they should know best", but it happened before on their watch so .....
My niece has mentioned to me before she often questions his motives when observing him work with the children but then tells herself she needs to let it go and let God handle it.
Wow. It is her duty to do God's work; to protect the innocent. He does things through people, He doesn't do it for us. I'm sure you've gone there with her on that. Does she say anything to him or anyone else when he does inappropriate things or things that she thinks is not quite right?
Just for the record, my sister who was married to the father, struggled with this. She wanted to turn this guy in and it caused serious marriage problems between her and the father.
I'm so sorry for your loss. It sounds like she carried this with her to God. Do you know how/who she wanted to turn him in to? By the way he still falls apart he is still carrying the guilt even if not adding more. He needs help. If he was truly forgiven and had repented he'd be more incllined to ensure he wasn't under suspicion, and ideally would be led to minister to those who he can best identify with, those who have/had the same 'urges', the same sin or temptations. Not led to be constantly near the temptation.
He claims he told several people who had children this man came in contact with. Not true. He claims this man received professional therapy for this problem. Not true. He claims he has talked to several other ministers and they all agreed he handled this biblically. Not true. At this point, he is telling lie after lie to keep this underwraps.
You can verify he lied?

I'm beginning to think you have no recourse but to bring it out in the open. How to do it though. What has the counselor said?

Do you attend a bible study, group discussion or some other situation with any of the parents where you could pose the dilema in such a way they don't know who you are talking about (maybe you saw a tv show or a long distance friend or something?), and then seek their advice if they, as parents, would want to be informed if their children were in that spot.

Do you know the parents of the other children molested? What have/are they doing about it? How are their kids? Are they still at the church?

This is bigger than me. God obviously can handle it and I'm sure you've prayed for his heart to be convicted, for his repentance, for God to bring someone into his life to bring healing, exposure, protection. It's possible that he's bringing you since your heart is so heavy about this. Can/will the counselor talk to the abuser? Have you looked online find well known established ministries that handle this sort of thing, and given them a call?

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#26

Post by Anonymous » Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:41 pm

Salt,

They should know best and it did happen on their watch before. Not only that they also admit they would not turn in a Christian for molesting a child as long he/she repented. I do not call that accountability. I see that as a green light to keep molesting.

When this man does things my niece sees she says nothing mainly because she thinks it is none of her business. She believes God will take care of it.

Yes, he still falls apart when confronted. I think his main problem is he denies he has or ever had urges to molest. He says he does not know why he did it. I believe he knows but obviously does not want to admit he has urges. Once he admits to having urges then he would be admitting he needs help beyond a lay pastor and an accountability partner. He does not want to go outside that comfort zone. He would run the risk of getting reported if he did.

Yes, he has lied several times. I verify it by speaking with the people who know what my sister told them. In addition, I spoke with some of the parents of the children he claimed he spoke with. They say they were never approached by anyone about any abuse to their children. I spoke with one of the ministers he claimed to speak with. They said it never happened. He is trying to cover it up expecting me to believe what he says just because he is a pastor. He often forgets I know the same people he knows. I talk to the people involved and they all tell me different things. They need to call a meeting and get their stories in line. Oh, and the counselor he supposedly sees is a member of their church and from what I understand he does not even speak with her about his problem. Of course, he does not believe he has a problem.

I do not attend anything with parents of children at that church. I stay away from that church and its leaders if I can. If these people saw me at their church they would probably escort me out. They call me a rumor starter and a trouble maker.

I have searched online to find help. I have called everyone you can imagine. People are afraid of a situation like this. Nobody wants to touch it. I do not blame them. If I was not involved I doubt I would touch it either. LOL!

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#27

Post by Mastermind » Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:49 pm

Just curious -- why do you say you are one of the few? (On this board, on this topic, in christianity?)
In general. I don't expect much of atheists and agnostics, but it really bothers me when Most Christians believe in things like capital punishment.
Admittedly, in this case, we all did jump in and seem to assume he's still at it. I'm not a catholic but I believe that confession of a crime is good for the soul. If he had confessed to his congregation, if he used this past sin to show God's power to change the sinner, then I'd say he's redeemed. But since he still hides it he's not to be trusted. Especially since he's in a position of power, leadership and control. He may be redeemed in Gods eyes, but hiding the truth taints the redemption in my point of view.

I know pastors that ensure they are never alone with a woman who is not his wife just to ensure no possible sense of impropriety can ever be construed. This pastor should distance himself from all children's ministry for the same reason.
I'm not taking a particular side, although I agree that the facts do appear stacked against him. I do suggest, however, to try and find out if he's still at it or not.

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#28

Post by Deborah » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:11 pm

I believe in Redemption, but I also believe in PROTECTING Children.
If he is cured by god, that is great. But we must remember there are a lot of people out there who say they are Christian and do dreadful things.
This Church has a responsibility to the Children and to this man, they should never put the children in danger at anytime, and they should never put this man in a position that he may be tempted again. This is a recipe for disaster because we all know we are tempted, and sometimes we are weak. But knowing we are weak we keep ourselves from a situation that may tempt us. If we are recovering alcoholics do we not steer clear of alcohol? Do we leave it around us to tempt us knowing it is just a moment of weakness and all our good work is undone?
In general. I don't expect much of atheists and agnostics, but it really bothers me when Most Christians believe in things like capital punishment.
BTW I do not believe in Capital Punishment, I believe Capital Punishment is Murder.
I do not understand how any Christian can support it because Jesus said Thou shall not Murder. I can't see it as anything other than Murder because it is not even self defence.
How is watching someone die justice all it is, is evil.

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#29

Post by Deborah » Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:34 am

I don't like to think about this, but I must speak my mind.
I suggest that this victim was never counselled, but coached by her father not to say anything. This guy is protecting his own backside. She has to leave her home at 18 because she is made to feel unwelcome there. This guy only cares when it suits him.
This sort of cover up would scare the hell out of me.

This young lady is very lucky to have you and your wife in her corner. I hope she realizes how lucky she is. You all need to think seriously about what will happen if he is still offending, Because you can bet he would have gotten sneaker. Think about how you will all feel if they were to find out he is still offending.

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#30

Post by Anonymous » Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:57 am

sofalogic:

Ok, Here is a great site that deals with child abuse, mostly from the abortion issue aspect. An underage girl seeking birth control or an abortion obviously has been or is being sexually abused, and many abortion clinics fail to report her quest by erroneously citing her right to privacy, and many schools add to the horror by weekly abortion clinic runs to avoid parental consent laws. The folks running this organization really focus on this aspect of sexual abuse because they started out as a pro-life group and uncovered this looking the other way habit of the abortion industry. But abuse is abuse and a church is required to report by state law even if not required by church 'law'. If nothing else they can help you figure out what recourse you have and tactics you could pursue. And every citizen can, and every person who works with the young are required to, report any suspected abuse. It is the job of the law to investigate the suspected abuse, not the reporter of it.

I really hope this helps you find out how to ensure those children are protected!!!

Here are some excerpts from a few pages of their site http://www.childpredators.com/
Report Statutory Rape and Other Sexual Abuse - Help protect underage girls from the sexual predators that are seeking to exploit them. Call 940-380-8800 if you know of a situation where a healthcare provider, clinic worker or any person working for a "family planning service" failed to report contact with an underage girl who was known to be pregnant or sexually active. If you reach us after hours, then leave us a message and we will call you back the next business day.

To file a statutory rape or other child sex abuse report online, click here

There is a growing threat to young girls from sexual predators, many of whom would have been caught and thrown into jail if their crimes had not been covered up. To get these child predators off the street, we must prosecute anyone who protects pedophiles by not complying with state mandatory reporting laws. Please call us if you are aware of any victims of statutory rape or any other sexual abuse that had contact with any clinic or "family planning service".

The best weapon that we have against those who help sexual predators evade detection is litigation. By forcing pedophile protectors to pay for the harm they are causing to present abuse victims, future victims and the parents of these girls, we can keep child predators off the streets and put them in jail where they belong.

Call Life Dynamics at (940) 380-8800 - from 8am to 5pm (Central).

You can also contact us in writing at:

Life Dynamics Incorporated
Post Office Box 2226
Denton, Texas 76202

Fax us at (940) 380-8700.

For more information on LDI visit http://www.LifeDynamics.com

Encourage anyone who may have been a victim of statutory rape or other sexual abuse to contact us and to consider taking legal action against those who covered up her abuse. This also applies to the parents of a girl who was the victim of such abuse. In order to break the cycle of abuse and cover-up, those who protect pedophiles must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.


Interestingly, a perfect model for one of our litigation strategies is being created at this very moment. We are all aware of the firestorm currently swirling around the Catholic Church regarding the issue of pedophile priests. Already, dioceses have either settled or lost lawsuits totaling hundreds-of-millions of dollars - and some have been forced to close schools and sell property to pay off these awards.

If you look at these suits, what you find is that these Catholic dioceses are not being sued because their priests molested children. They are being sued for negligence because they allegedly knew about the sexual abuse of children and failed to report it to the authorities.

These suits contend that by protecting pedophile priests and concealing their behavior, these dioceses were in effect guaranteeing that there would be additional victims in the future.

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