Check this anti-abortion site out.

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Jonouchi Katsuya
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#91

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:59 pm

SnowDrops wrote:
Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:
SnowDrops wrote:Well, do you agree abortion is murder? Why or why not?
Are periods murder? Is ejaculation murder?

Second trimester I would say yes unless it was to save the mother. I am against abortion... but I understand why it is currently a necessary evil.

Too many people want to give birth rather than adopt.

I am sure you wouldn't agree that using pesticides is murder. But I feel that it is.
Well, it comes down to who do you think is human (or has a valuable life / soul?) and who is not. I would say a fetus is human, therefore killing a fetus is the same as killing any other person. Therefore the same conditions apply as to whether it is murder or not.
When does it become human? Well, contrary to many people on this forum, I would say not from the moment of conception, but rather I would accept the explanation on this site: From the moment the heart starts beating (according to Scripture: blood is life). That still happens at only 4 weeks after conception though, so nearly all abortions happen after that.
Why would you say it is a necessary evil?
88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation.

The fetal stage begins at the beginning of the 9th week. And the fetus is attached to the pelcenta at the 12th. Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage. So this is why I think it is OK (as OK as it can be) in the first trimester. They do not feel pain yet. ._. However in the medical field many say they can't feel pain until the third trimester, but I have read some that say sooner than that.

So, the sooner aborted, if that is what you are going to do... the better.

Why is it currently a necessary evil? Population problems. Think about Africa where starvation is a common occurrence. Too many people too few mouths to put it in. It is a real threat to run out of water. To run out of food.

If you aren't going to agree with that, then you must consider the cost of having a baby. $17,000-$26,000. If a woman isn't working a good job... and she get's pregnant it could devastate her credit score being unable to pay and as a mother... she will be less likely to be hired for a higher paying job.

I think the third one is... look at our government. Look at the financial crisis we seem to be in. Now imagine putting 1.3 million more children every year in their care. Imagine how most will not be able to be placed in foster homes or adoptive homes as they are struggling even now with MANY unwanted children already. Consider that many children in foster care have been abused by their foster home. Consider that many children in this system must frequently change homes and never feel secure. Consider that most children put in this situation who become teenagers in this system become the fringe, become pregnant, don't care about school as much, get on government programs.

Did you know that they are all entitled to free college paid by the government? Many don't take it... but imagine if they did and how they would probably not be able to afford it.

Without abortion... many more pregnant women would die. Before abortion was fully allowed in the United States more women died yearly do to illegal abortion or even just legal abortion than they do now. It is overall a safe procedure. As safe as any medical procedure can be.

I still say that every person should be educated on how to prevent pregnancy in the first place by the age of 14. When I was in 6th grade (just 12 years old), many girls were already talking about how they have already had sex with boys their own age. Girls start their period as young as 9. So they can get pregnant as young as nine and can start thinking about having sex by that age as well. They get curious and then they do it and then they regret it. Many parents don't talk to their child about sex because they feel their child will never do it. But my dad stated telling me about boys when I was about 11 years old. And guess what? I waited until marriage.

I feel there really should be more help out there for women and teen girls who get pregnant to help them financially through this tough time. And continuing help should be offered until they can support the child on their own...

I think the cost of daycare is too ridiculous for any woman working a minimum wage job.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#92

Post by Murray » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:37 pm

The fetal stage begins at the beginning of the 9th week. And the fetus is attached to the pelcenta at the 12th. Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage. So this is why I think it is OK (as OK as it can be) in the first trimester. They do not feel pain yet. ._. However in the medical field many say they can't feel pain until the third trimester, but I have read some that say sooner than that.
If I were to sedate a 40 year old man , then cut him up and suck him through a vaccum would it be okay becuse he could not feel and experience pain?

Human life is human life, an embryo has a spirit, and you are KILLING that spirit and intruding on gods plan for than defenceless and unborn child.
in nomine patri et fili spiritu sancte

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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#93

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Murray wrote:
The fetal stage begins at the beginning of the 9th week. And the fetus is attached to the pelcenta at the 12th. Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage. So this is why I think it is OK (as OK as it can be) in the first trimester. They do not feel pain yet. ._. However in the medical field many say they can't feel pain until the third trimester, but I have read some that say sooner than that.
If I were to sedate a 40 year old man , then cut him up and suck him through a vaccum would it be okay becuse he could not feel and experience pain?

Human life is human life, an embryo has a spirit, and you are KILLING that spirit and intruding on gods plan for than defenceless and unborn child.
Here are some quotes from the bible that substantiate my feelings...

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

There are some other passages in the bible that state the the quality of life if born is very important. There are some other passages, but I don't have them bookmarked. You may not agree with me... and you may counteract me... but I feel it is almost a compassionate thing to do. If man and woman have no love in their heart to provide for a child... If things are really bad in the world or for their living situation... I feel that I am supported more by your religion than my own.
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#94

Post by Murray » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:16 pm

Give them to an orphanage, give them up for adoption, or realize the fact that you made the choice to have sex it is your fault you are pregnagnt, not the human life inside you. Why should the baby be killed just because you decided to have sex? What did it do wrong? When did it loose its right to live?

The baby had no choice for it to become a life, you had a choice, and you choice to participate in an activity that always carries the risk of pregnancy.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#95

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:38 pm

Murray wrote:Give them to an orphanage, give them up for adoption, or realize the fact that you made the choice to have sex it is your fault you are pregnagnt, not the human life inside you. Why should the baby be killed just because you decided to have sex? What did it do wrong? When did it loose its right to live?

The baby had no choice for it to become a life, you had a choice, and you choice to participate in an activity that always carries the risk of pregnancy.
What about rape?

And besides, I already said that the fostercare system is terrible and needs to improve GREATLY. Too many kids get lost in the system. Bringing a child in the world only for them to be raped by foster parents is not my idea of a good life.

Human beings are one of only a few creatures that have sex for pleasure. It is a part of our nature to want to have sex. If society wasn't so rigged- there wouldn't be an issue with bringing bajillions of children into the world.
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#96

Post by Murray » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:49 pm

On Rape, one life is already ruined, why ruin anther. The women got raped, then goes through the trama of an abortion and the knowledge thAt she took a human life. What wrong did the baby commit? Why punish the defenceless child.a

On foster care , it is not broken, and those cases of foster parent rape are so incredably rare you can hardley make an argument for it. More children are raped by their real parents than by a foster.

And if you are that worried about a bad Gov. foster care then give the baby to a christian orphanage (althought you may have to travel a bit to find one due to the law suits and gay marriages in many states).
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#97

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:58 pm

Murray wrote:On Rape, one life is already ruined, why ruin anther. The women got raped, then goes through the trama of an abortion and the knowledge thAt she took a human life. What wrong did the baby commit? Why punish the defenceless child.a

On foster care , it is not broken, and those cases of foster parent rape are so incredably rare you can hardley make an argument for it. More children are raped by their real parents than by a foster.

And if you are that worried about a bad Gov. foster care then give the baby to a christian orphanage (althought you may have to travel a bit to find one due to the law suits and gay marriages in many states).


Ruining the woman's life, the baby's life for their mother not wanting it.

Foster care is broken. Get calls from those poor kids everyday about how they are being sent away again to yet another family and how they wish to die or how they wish they were never born. I have to tell them that it will get better when they are able to live on their own. That everything will get better. I can't say much more do to confidentiality.

My friend who was in fostercare said it split her and her sister up, and they will not let her contact her only known family! Infact, they say they have no idea where her sister is.
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#98

Post by SnowDrops » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:36 am

Before we go on, could you answer one question: Is a fetus human or not? Why or why not? Really that's all that matters. If you intentionally kill a human, it is murder. That's it. If we start going by who is wanted or who is happy, well maybe we should kill people that are in a coma or amputees and so on...
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#99

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:20 am

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:
Murray wrote:On Rape, one life is already ruined, why ruin anther. The women got raped, then goes through the trama of an abortion and the knowledge thAt she took a human life. What wrong did the baby commit? Why punish the defenceless child.a

On foster care , it is not broken, and those cases of foster parent rape are so incredably rare you can hardley make an argument for it. More children are raped by their real parents than by a foster.

And if you are that worried about a bad Gov. foster care then give the baby to a christian orphanage (althought you may have to travel a bit to find one due to the law suits and gay marriages in many states).


Ruining the woman's life, the baby's life for their mother not wanting it.

Foster care is broken. Get calls from those poor kids everyday about how they are being sent away again to yet another family and how they wish to die or how they wish they were never born. I have to tell them that it will get better when they are able to live on their own. That everything will get better. I can't say much more do to confidentiality.

My friend who was in fostercare said it split her and her sister up, and they will not let her contact her only known family! Infact, they say they have no idea where her sister is.
Well, this may sound mean, but it is true. Those children, shouldbe absolutly estatic that they were adopted in the U.S and not sri lanka.
Now you may find this offencive, but sucicide is selfish and cowardly. I, 3 years ago tryed to kill myself, and you what I wish I could do now? Go back and scream at my self for being a weak coward and slap myself around a bit. Weakness is the cause of suicide. I am 100% positive if those kids stopped feeling sorry for themselves and did something productive, (go to the gym, study the bible, find a sport) they would not feel that way anymore.

If you hate life in america, rich or poor, you should be deported to sri lanka to live in a tent city with every disease you can think, dying men women and children all around you, and learn what actual starvation is.

And that child, unless they are being beaten, should have an insane amount of love for their foster family, they took them in and payed thousands of dollars to support them. now I assume they hate their foster home because "Evil DaDy YeLled aT mE" and fail to realize that evil daddy took them under his arm and devoted a large portion of his life to them.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#100

Post by Murray » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:24 am

Every person alive goes through sadness, and it is not because of evil daddy that they are sad. Truth in truth is , we make ourselves sad. We make up alot of the issues in our life. Are their some exceptions? sure. But 85% of the time we are just feeling sorry for ourselves.

I was depressed 5 months ago, did I kill myself? no. Did I call a hotline to complain about parents who spent insane money and dedication to me ? no.

You can be depressed sometimes, it's just nature, even sometimes it has to do with the weather. But acting up and blaming others for your sadness is awful.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#101

Post by kmr » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:23 pm

@ SnowDrops:
Human:
Definition

noun, plural: humans

A bipedal primate belonging to the genus Homo, especially Homo sapiens.
Are human embryos and fetuses members of the genus Homo? I think yes, seeing as both its parents were.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#102

Post by SnowDrops » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:57 pm

kmr wrote:@ SnowDrops:
Human:
Definition

noun, plural: humans

A bipedal primate belonging to the genus Homo, especially Homo sapiens.
Are human embryos and fetuses members of the genus Homo? I think yes, seeing as both its parents were.
Yup, but to avoid this abortion supporters say that it has to be a wanted human life or something else like that. There's an article on the main site about it: Pro-Abortion is Anti-Science. Hence what I said: Maybe we should kill people in a coma too, since chances are they're not really wanted and not capable of function.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#103

Post by kmr » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:33 pm

Or maybe we should support suicide, murder, and mal-practice, because in all cases the person harmed is not wanted by the person harming.

A rebuttal to this statement may be that for each person, SOMEONE wanted them, but then you would have to admit that some family, somewhere also wants to adopt the aborted child...
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#104

Post by jlay » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:54 pm

Are periods murder? Is ejaculation murder?
Ridiculous. Neither involve a human life. A feritlized egg is human life. Genetically, a fertilized egg has all the human DNA it will ever have.
What about rape?
How does punishing the unborn for the crimes of the father make sense. We have a child in our church that is the product of rape. Is she less human, or deserving of fewer rights?


Regarding Ecclesiastes. Do you understand the context? This is a lament of Solomon. God used humans to write the bible for a reason. To not only convey the plans of God, but to also reveal the futility of the human experience without God. Solomon reveals this quite well. It is certainly not an endorsement for abortion. Shame on you for suggesting such.
If man and woman have no love in their heart to provide for a child..
If a man and woman have no love, then they have evil. Hitler had no love in his heart for the Jew. My friend, your mind is twisted to call evil good. You need to repent.
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Re: Check this anti-abortion site out.

#105

Post by Jonouchi Katsuya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:37 pm

SnowDrops wrote:Before we go on, could you answer one question: Is a fetus human or not? Why or why not? Really that's all that matters. If you intentionally kill a human, it is murder. That's it. If we start going by who is wanted or who is happy, well maybe we should kill people that are in a coma or amputees and so on...
Nothing in the bible states that a fetus is fully human or is to be treated as human. Least from what I recall.

But in my religion it has a soul. Even rocks have souls.
Hi I am a Buddhist and I seek enlightenment. I do not know everything. I do not pretend to know everything. I desire strongly to discuss the Bible as you see it. Please correct me when I get something wrong.

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