Is Abortion Murder?

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Mastermind
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#31

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:37 pm

Does that mean we shouldn't try at all? And there ARE laws to stop killers. There is no law to stop abortion(at least not at the beginning of the pregnancy)

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#32

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:47 pm

Personally I don't think we should ban abortions. God doesn't smite us for committing a sin but he's rather merciful and forgiving. By banning abortion we would be forcing certain people to seek alternative methods of stoping their pregnancy. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking and as Christians we are not to tempt others into doing sin but who says we are too use force to stop someone from committing sin. Its your choice to sin and Jesus never forced anyone to repent, instead he told them what would happen otherwise so that they could come to a decision on their own from the heart.

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#33

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:51 pm

As I said before, it is their choice to sin. However, their sin doesn't only affect them, it affects the life of another human being. By that logic, we should remove all laws because "it's their choice to sin". Everybody deserves a chance to live.

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#34

Post by Prodigal Son » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:54 pm

vvart,

ditto.

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#35

Post by Felgar » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:56 pm

I'm not going to quote anyone, but I think there's a theme running through this whole thread which I am very opposed to. The idea that children born into poverty would be better off not to have lived. The idea that people in poverty are somehow worth less than those who are rich and educated.

This viewpoint is NOT biblical. It is not our right to say whether this persons life will be worth living based on them being subjected to poverty (or anything else for that matter). The question implying what of two evils (poverty or abortion) shall we choose almosts disguists me.

It's getting too late to dig passages up for each of these, but please consider:

- Jesus was born directly into poverty - in a fricken barn for crying out loud. Why do you think this was? It was to show that our Lord and Saviour has come to save all, and that He would see His mercy extend to the poor esspecially.
- The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
- It is exceedingly difficult for the rich to enter the kingdom of God.

The fact is that when a person has been saved and knows Jesus that life is filled with satisfaction and joy - both now and for eternity. The poor esspecially are objects of God's mercy, and we should be mindful to serve the poor as Jesus did and not to judge them.

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#36

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:58 pm

vvart wrote:Its your choice to sin and Jesus never forced anyone to repent, instead he told them what would happen otherwise so that they could come to a decision on their own from the heart.
Jesus kicked out the merchants from the temple. Jesus stopped the people from stoning the prostitute to death. He didn't force any of them to repent, but He sure as hell didn't let them harm somebody else, either spiritually or physically.

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#37

Post by Shirtless » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:40 pm

Colors, I've been on many message boards, and sometimes there's this one guy who has crazy ideas about stuff, and then I go nuts wondering why someone thinks this. Then he says, "Oh, by the way, I'm twelve."

And I'm like "Oh."

If you believe that humans don't have instinct, I guess you have reasons to think that, but it certainly isn't required. Remember, this is an apologetic web page; don't be like those "Young Earth" Christians.

Everyone,
I don't know why you guys aren't hearing me out on something: You keep saying I'd rather let a child go hungry than kill him, or why don't we drop a nuke to stop population control, etc. If you're trying to change my mind, you should look at it from my perspective and convince me based on that. I DO welcome anything that would change my mind; this is bigger little ol' me after all. :)

I'm trying to say that I don't believe it's a child, it's a body. I believe that when my mother was pregnant with "me", I didn't exist. And if that body was killed by abortion, I still wouldn't exist, because there is no "I", because the "me" was never created.

Wow, this clears the mind even better than that "tree falling in the woods" thing.

Anyway, I know you good Christians are doing what you feel is the moral thing to do by objecting to abortions, and I find the reason behind the pro-life movement to be very honorable. I don't agree with some other pro-choice advocates who say that it's all about controlling women's bodies. You're doing it to save the baby's body.

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#38

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:49 pm

Well, we know that scientifically, the fetus is a separate entity from conception. Nobody but the dumbest of pro choicers would claim otherwise. Now, about the soul. You mentioned Adam. Adam's first breath could not mean the introduction to his soul. Why? Because he had a soul before his first breath.

"[7] then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. "

Adam came to life after <b>God</b> breathed into him. He couldn't have taken that breath in by himself since he was a corpse! Adam DID NOT breathe God's breath. God breathed in Adam's nostrils to bring him to life. Adam's first breath would occur after that. There is no biblical reason to suspect the soul comes in after birth. Now, when does the soul enter the body? I suspect it is after conception, but we do not know. I know a verse in the old testament states it starts "in the womb" which is reason enough not to commit abortion for me.

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#39

Post by Anonymous » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:00 pm

Mastermind

-I'm all for stopping abortion and all sorts of sin, but thats not reality. Prohibition failed, whats to say banning abortion will stop people from doing it, it could make things worse. Maybe we should preach forgiveness of Christ instead of throwing people into jail for doing something wrong.

Felgar

- I don't think poverty is an issue here, Corinthians: "the less i have, the more i depend on him." So clearly being dirt poor has immense advantages as a rich man will have a hard time obtaining the faith that a poor man can attain in God with ease. However in our day an age, its hard to come of faith as thats based greatly on the parents.

Shirtless:
I think a soul forms in the womb, its a view that I think was probably covered while discussing cloning, but the part about "I formed you from the womb"...I believe thats referring to our soul. Anyway even from your belief at the moment don't you think that the fetus has a chance of obtaining a soul and by terminating it, it would be the same as say killing a non-christian who has the potential of becoming a christian.

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#40

Post by Mastermind » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:05 pm

vvart wrote:Mastermind

-I'm all for stopping abortion and all sorts of sin, but thats not reality. Prohibition failed, whats to say banning abortion will stop people from doing it, it could make things worse. Maybe we should preach forgiveness of Christ instead of throwing people into jail for doing something wrong.
I wish I was as optimistic as you were, but it seems the world is getting more adamantly atheist. Banning may not stop all abortions, but it will definitely stop most of them. If a mother is willing to go to extreme lengths to remove another human life, and stupidly dies in the process, it was a direct result of her choice. I don't plan on allowing the murderer to murder just to prevent the murderer from commiting suicide.

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#41

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:27 pm

vvart wrote: -I'm all for stopping abortion and all sorts of sin, but thats not reality. Prohibition failed, whats to say banning abortion will stop people from doing it, it could make things worse. Maybe we should preach forgiveness of Christ instead of throwing people into jail for doing something wrong.
I believe that is what was said about slavery too, that is, it will still happen. Murder of born people still happens too, does that mean it shouldn't be banned. Which reminds me...

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#42

Post by Anonymous » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:09 am

kurieuo:

Interesting poster thingy, The deal with slavery is that after it was abolished, black codes were passed and the plantation owners used share cropping and other cheap tricks to essentially go around the system and force blacks to become slaves regardless. It took about 100 years after Civil War for blacks to really become "free". Now this could happen with abortion as well in that basically non-christian groups feel very strongly about their right to have an abortion much like plantation owners felt about their right to have slaves. So in theory they could beat the system as well by having abortions illegal and this would probably prompt the creation of abortion police or the like, something that isn't gonna happen unless the nation was a christian one.

Basically in the world we live in today, more sin is being committed then say 200 or 1000 years ago against the Lord. I hear people constantly use our Lord's name in a negative context and insult eachother and so on. The Non-christian will go about sinning and any children they bear are likely to follow in their shoes, which is why although it would be great to have these people come to faith, its likely not gonna happen and our moral state is steadly heading closer to pre-flood conditions. This I feel is inevitable, so as our Christian views are struck down, so will the time come when we will as well. So technically I don't even think it is possible to get a ban even if we tried, since the time for Christian persecution grows ever so near. If what i say seems far fetched, just look at all the Gay people that were married in the U.S. within the last year.

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#43

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:46 am

vvart wrote:Interesting poster thingy,
I thought so too when I saw it on the website here. ;)
vvart wrote:Now this could happen with abortion as well in that basically non-christian groups feel very strongly about their right to have an abortion much like plantation owners felt about their right to have slaves. So in theory they could beat the system as well by having abortions illegal and this would probably prompt the creation of abortion police or the like, something that isn't gonna happen unless the nation was a christian one.
I disagree, as such presupposes non-Christians don't recognise moral values, which I'd disagree with. If secular people are able to recognise the African slave trade was wrong, then they are also able to recognise that abortion is wrong. The pro-life position isn't necessarily a Christian stance any more than anti-slavary was. There are many Atheists who are also pro-life (e.g., http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html). Therefore, the nation does not need to be Christian at all.

Could we leave it up to God in the end to judge? Sure, but if we follow after Christ then we should also help the poor and defenseless in this world. We aren't called to be inactive participants, leaving everything up to God.

As for the most effective way to police such laws, such is an entirely different issue altogether, and has no impact on the moral issues surrounding the abortion of life.

Kurieuo.
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#44

Post by Anonymous » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:26 am

No No i think your right we should be active, but my belief is that the action of say voting is irrelevant and its our thoughts toward the issue that matters. For example when Jesus told his disciples to give money to the poor, I don't believe it was to make the poor rich but was rather for the disciples to understand that money is of no importance and can be a tool for helping others. As you can only have 1 master God or money. So I think action in the thought is more important then the physical as my belief is that, christian values are going to diminish as time goes by and that is to be God's plan. I try not to worry, although i fail, about preventing this or that and all i can do is voice my opinion. So yeah i guess your right banning abortion could be beneficial but i just don't think it is ever going to happen and I would rather tell someone thinking about abortion to do what they thought was best and then to seek Christ rather then bashing at them for doing the wrong thing. Frankly abortions or no abortions, noone is getting saved, not physically speaking but spiritually.

Also just because Atheists are pro-life doesn't mean they are for the right reasons. For example the Pharisees gave money to the poor but only to show off, so again im inclined to believe its our intentions that count not exactly what we do. What appears good on the outside may not be as it is on the inside.

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#45

Post by Prodigal Son » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:36 pm

shirtless,

my ideas aren't crazy. they are definately not any more bizarre than yours, at least. people don't have instincts. sorry you feel so strongly that they do.

and i'm not twelve so don't worry about it.

i'm also not like those "young earth christians"...i'm like ME.

p.s. a fetus is not just a body, it's a person. the ME is not something that is created after the baby is born. i think that you are confusing personality with soul. a soul is what makes a person who they are and every child has a soul before they are born. AFTER they are born they develop a personality. making that distinction might clear things up for you a bit.

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