Is Abortion Murder?

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
Shirtless
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#46

Post by Shirtless » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:00 pm

I'm not confusing the two :? . Instincts IMHO are programed into your brain when your brain developes, and that they consist of urges, preferences, reactions, etc. They're just another part of that machine known as your body, and they can be useful to you, or sometimes they can be a problem. It's part of your body, not the soul.

I believe that someone is not human in the womb (with a formed body ready to recieve a soul, but without soul) and that when a new-born baby breathes air for the first time, his soul literally goes into him in some manner. I believe this based on Bible passages, and I feel that these passages are much stronger than any passages that may or may not support pro-life.

BTW, I think it's safe to say you're mistaken about men in monogomus marriages not so much as dreaming of having more than one sex partner in his life. Of course they dream of it (whether regularly or just occationally), but whether they actually DO have sex with someone other than their one wife, who knows.

On a less universal and more personal note, I believe that basically all men wish they could have more than one wife. But their culture considers it taboo, or in the case of many Christians, they feel like God is against it. I believe that the Bible not only allows having more than one spouse, but encourages it. But that's just me. :lol:

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#47

Post by Mastermind » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:11 pm

I do not believe instincts are tied only to the body. I know from OBB experiences that people who experience them(usually accidentally) snap back into their bodies if they get even remotely scared. I'd call that an instinct.

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#48

Post by Anonymous » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:46 pm

Shirtless i can't say i mistaken you are, remember what Jesus said about marriage and divorce. Basically moses allowed for them to have divorce but as Jesus said thats not what God intended and it was only allowed to curb their sinful nature.

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#49

Post by Prodigal Son » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:56 pm

shirtless,

you definately are confusing the two...and confusing a whole lot of other stuff for that matter.

people don't have instincts (reactions, desires, etc. are not instincts). we have no programming...we have reason and free will.

and your belief on souls being breathed into the body after a child is born is strange...never heard that one from anyone before---christian or non-christian.

but, go on interpreting the bible and everything else around you as you please. your beliefs won't make these interpretations a reality.

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#50

Post by Shirtless » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:49 pm

That's interesting Mastermind; maybe it does connect to the soul. But maybe it's only because the soul hasn't completely left the body? Like, it may just be the little bit of soul left in you that keeps you from dying, and you're still connected to the body with all it's faults.

vvart,
Sorry I brought it up :oops:. This isn't the right thread for marriage discussions, but we could discuss it on the "sex" thread which wonders into the subject of monogamy.

colors,
You sound like a very angry person by nature--I don't know if it's natural instinct, or your own free will. I'm sorry if I offended you asking your age, but I have never given a hostile "I'm right, you're wrong" statement like you're doing. I don't know how many times I've written "I believe..." or "In my opinion...", but you still get defensive. Kurieuo hasn't been that way, and he's given me information that's made me think. Be like him and we'll get somewhere. You should learn humility.

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#51

Post by Mastermind » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:53 pm

Well, there is a string(my own experience was too brief for me to think about it) that connects your spirit to your body if you're out but not dead, but what does it have to do with reflex of the body? Snapping back requires no physical interaction, only mental. In fact, you cannot control your body at all if you're out. Some people experience sleep paralysis after it, so that's even more of a reason to assume there is more than just the physical to instincts.

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#52

Post by August » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:15 pm

Shirtless, regardless of all of the above conversation about when a person gets a soul, why do you think we have the right to take away the potential for that person to have a soul by killing an unborn baby? Do you think God would want that baby to be born and have a soul, or just discarded like a piece of trash?

And before you raise the whole poverty issue again, what makes you 100% sure that that baby will not grow up to be very successful? We see rags to riches stories all the time. Remember that God determines where and why you are born, for His purpose. If He decides that a person is to born poor, He has his reasons.

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#53

Post by August » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:23 pm

Just found these interesting stats:

"· 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing

· 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby

· 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child

· 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy)

· 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career

· 7.9% of women want no (more) children

· 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health

2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health"

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/aborti ... nstats.htm

Close to 45 million babies have been killed since Roe v Wade, 4000 per day.

Abortion for the sake of convenience, mostly.

May God forgive us.

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#54

Post by Shirtless » Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:00 pm

Mastermind,
I think I've got it! Fear that you think about is part of your soul, but more involuntary stuff is just your body--like how premeditated murder is a great sin, and automatically hitting someone that caused you to instantly go into a rage is more about a person's genetic predisposition to violence. I'm not making excuses for violence BTW.

August,
Good question about the being born in poverty. There's always a "what if?", which is why abortion should be a very careful decision, but if I lived in a poor community, I would NEVER have children, I'm a better future father than that. Abortion should be given thought though. This is a good argument against suicide as well. I've wanted to commit suicide many times in my awful mood-swing teen years, getting really depressed over nothing--but had I done that I never would have found God...

Assuming that a fetus doesn't have a soul before birth, throwing it out like trash does seem nasty and wrong, but I think that we have a tendency to connect with things that we can relate to. Feeling upset about the idea of aborting a fetus (if it has no soul) is like feeling sad when someone steps on a frog, or when we give a dead body proper burial respect, even though it's just tissue. These aren't bad feelings, but we have to understand our compassionate nature can sometimes get the better of us. If a fetus has no soul, then it's just tissue, and getting rid of it (for convenience or otherwise) would be no different than cutting your hair. Those stats are interesting, but what about the ones who do live in a poor home or don't have enough money?

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#55

Post by August » Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:44 am

Shirtless, what I'm trying to get at is that we as Christians have a duty to also look at God's intent. His intent is to grow His kingdom, and the only way he can do that is by using us, His followers. If we approve of abortion, we are undermining His intent of growth, His intent of having us spread across the world to preach His gospel, because we are killing a soul, or the future home of a soul, that He alone gives, and empowers to do His work.

What do you think He wants, abortion or life?

Also, speaking about poverty again, I think it's a rather poor excuse. I don't know if you have travelled, but if you go to India or Africa, you get to see real poverty, children eating one small meal a day, living in cardboard boxes etc. Yet still they are happy, and they try to work themselves out of it. Yes, it is sad, and that is why we as children of God try to help as much as we can. But to say that they never had the right to a life because they may or may not go hungry or cold is a bit radical, in my opinion. In the USA there is no excuse, there is nowhere the amount of poverty that is seen in 3rd world countries, and there is every opportunity for a poor person to get themselves helped.

The best answer is then to not have children, but once you are pregnant, it is your God given responsibility to nurture that gift for the advanement of God's kingdom.

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#56

Post by Shirtless » Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:17 pm

August,
About the Third World, I'm sure if poor Africans could afford abortions there would be less of a problem. But the real problem is (hope you're not Catholic :P ) the lack of contraceptives and promotion of safe sex - a problem we have here as well.

What God intends, He intends. It's not my place to decipher God's will as if I'm some sort of prophet from New England--much less put them into law. Assuming that fetuses have no soul, I would say that God has no problem with abortion--we have to separate His will from ours, September 11 was someone else's will, not God's.

I'm not talking about excuses for abortion, if all abortions were for totally selfish reasons with no medical issues, and no concern given to the future child, then it would be easier to say "Well, we should just ban abortion just in case; let's play it safe."
But what I'm saying is "Wait! Just a second, let's not be hasty. We might be creating horrible sorrow because of our cold feet. Let's give this more thought."

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#57

Post by Mastermind » Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:42 pm

The problem is that God does not want us to take a human life. A soul has nothing to do with it being alive. First, we don't know when the soul enters the body. Second, we KNOW it's alive. This is not a matter of IF. It's alive, and it's human.

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#58

Post by Prodigal Son » Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:39 pm

shirtless,

sorry you feel that way, but i'm not an angry or hostile person at all. perhaps you're projecting your feelings onto me? i understand, alot of people get angry when they hear the truth...

i do not write "i believe" or "in my opinion" before facts, because facts are facts and not beliefs or opinions.

also, i probably don't act like K, because i'm not him...nor do i desire to be like him (no offense to K). but i'm glad that he's helping you to see more clearly.

on the humility thing, maybe i need more, but i certainly don't need to develop this characteristic anymore than you do. remember:

"First get rid of the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." Matthew 7:5

...try not to soil this verse too much with your own interpretation.
Last edited by Prodigal Son on Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hESC

#59

Post by Anonymous » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:11 pm

I found a good site discussing the ethics of Embryonic Stem Cell Research. The author makes many good points that have been well researched. It even talks about things that you can do to make a difference. I encourage you to visit it:
http://www.hesc.cjb.net

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#60

Post by Shirtless » Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:41 pm

colors,

You can't change another person's mind by telling them how wrong they are. You might be wrong, and I might be wrong as well, but talking about how wrong someone is won't solve anything.

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