Ethics on killing?

[SourceofLiFe]

My friend

Please pay close attention to what I said before you reply.

As listed in my previous post, the war Moses wage were justified because it is not a war on a human level. It is no longer human vs human. It is God vs Satan.

When you try to justify your own human actions in the name of God, you are deceiving yourself.

A prime example is Osama Bin Laden who issued September 11th under the name of God to justify his own actions.

Hitler turned into the most evil man known in history before he realize it.

It is God's law that absolutely keep us intact. We human beings don't understand ourselves that much compared to the knowledge God holds toward the understanding of us.

That is why we must obey God's command and follow his action.

If God want us to sit there, we will have to sit there. God will show mercy upon us for our obidience. Do not confuse yourself with God's order and your own wants.

[Mastermind]

My friend

Please pay close attention to what I said before you reply.

As listed in my previous post, the war Moses wage were justified because it is not a war on a human level. It is no longer human vs human. It is God vs Satan.

When you try to justify your own human actions in the name of God, you are deceiving yourself.

A prime example is Osama Bin Laden who issued September 11th under the name of God to justify his own actions.

Hitler turned into the most evil man known in history before he realize it.

It is God's law that absolutely keep us intact. We human beings don't understand ourselves that much compared to the knowledge God holds toward the understanding of us.

That is why we must obey God's command and follow his action.

If God want us to sit there, we will have to sit there. God will show mercy upon us for our obidience. Do not confuse yourself with God's order and your own wants.

The problem is, the Bible has no clear stance on this issue(which is why we're having this debate). Say we both end up in the situation described by me. You do nothing, I act. We both get shot in the head regardless. Which would be the right thing to do? As for the war being between God and Satan, aren't most conflicts like that? Apart from wars where Satan instigates both sides, there are often conflicts that result as a clash between good and evil. If the Spirit chooses not to interfere, for the sake of seeing your choice(which is the whole point of free will), what would be better? And no offense, but I would prefer a better answer than "because I said so".

[SourceofLiFe]

It is only God vs Satan on that level when God's word declares it.

Remember, inaction is also a form of action

By not doing anything, it is also an "action"

Sometimes not doing anything is better than doing something.

My faith in God is strong because I follow him through every steps no matter how harsh the situation is for me.

I am prepared to live through the pain if I had to, just to follow God and be behind him under his light and guidance.

If you want to go before him, then you are on the path of Satan.

[SourceofLiFe]

I feel that I have offer enough information for people to grasp the topic clearly.

My friends, the decision is yours, to trust our Lord and be his follower no matter how tough the situation and consequences areupon us, seeing the ones we love suffering if we have to, just to be under Lord's leadership. That is true commitment of faith and trust. Entrusting our life, feelings, soul and the outcome to the mighty Lord.

Being hyper-critical will only lead you to regrets.

I hope all of you can see where I am coming from.

I love you all and may God be with you at all times.

Peace be with you. For only peace can be found upon our Lord.

[RGeeB]

I heard the following three points from preachers recently:

1) God will kill a disobedient and unrepentant Christian. The analogy given was that of the parent of an unruly child in a public place, cutting short its pleasures and taking it home. (Pastor Adrian Rogers who advocates OSAS, from the sermon 'The high cost of low living')

2) Satan will try to kill a Christian through whom God is going to accomplish great things. Examples given from the Bible were the infanticides during the birth of Moses and Jesus and the attempt of Queen Athalia to wipe out the royal line of David.

3) God will disable or kill a person (maybe a Christian) in order to prevent him from sinning further. The principle of plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand to forfeit the corrupt earthly life. An act of mercy?

Any thoughts?

[Anonymous]

All of these three points are flawed!

1.) Then they aren't real christians and yes they will be subjected to God's wrath upon Judgment Day.

2.) Satan doesn't try to kill christians, for Satan can only kill our body, which Christ has made clear he will raise us up again. So Satan tries to do something that can kill our soul, which is to tempt us away from God. This can be seen in that Satan tried to tempt Jesus. Satan has the power to tempt christians, which if they aren't strong can lead to their death during Judgment.

3.) This isn't backed up by anything and in fact Jesus tells US to cut our hand or gauge our eye. Its about our free will to choose and God always allows us to do so, making it clear we will get punished in the END if we abandon him.

Pastors need to stop saying stuff without scripture to back it up, especially when scripture goes against what they are saying.

As for the whole killing issue here's something that can help, Jesus said, "happy are those who strive for peace - they shall be called the sons of God."

thats really key because its important we strive for peace at all times and when we fail we must ask Christ's forgiveness and try even harder the next time. So in the scenario you mentioned, its better to do what you can without committing sin, but if you happen to kill the criminal, then ask for Christ's forgiveness and remember you will be Judged based on the sins you have committed, not the good deeds you happen to do.

[Kurieuo]

1: Do nothing. Our doctrine states that if our time has come, it has come and I accept it. In addition, I should be ready to sacrifice my life for the sake of good. Not reacting with violence may seem the most Christian choice.

2: Grab for the gun, try to subdue them with words, and if they don't take the hint and attack, shoot(usually in the legs, unless they all have guns in which case I probably won't bother to aim for specific parts).

Personally, although option one may seem more Christian, the consequences it might result over long term could be much worse than just my own skin. What if after they kill me, they chase down the girl and kill her too?

I quite frankly think extreme pacifism is immoral. A Christian has a moral duty to assist the poor and helpless, in whatever shape that might take. To allow innocent people to be slaughtered, rather than to fight and defend them, is not in any way a virtuous quality I'd like to have.

Many Christians are divided over this issue, but I'm inclined to go with what you'd likely swing towards. Help those who need help, but use common sense at the same time to take the best approach possible. Paul has said, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."(Romans 12:18) If there is a peaceful way of helping, one should take this approach. If a turn is taken towards a violent direction, then given your above scenario, one is entitled to defend themselves and the victim. It just seems like plain common sense to me.

Kurieuo.

[SourceofLiFe]

Let me make one point clear.

Jesus showed us that no matter what, no matter how our human enemy is hurting us, through physical and emotional pain, we must forgive.

Why? because human beings wrongdoing are developed through their nature and that nature have been the direct source for Satan to corrupt.

So it is the act of Satan in a indirect way. Those people are like the puppets of Satan, they don't understand that, so they can't fight against it.

That is why Jesus forgives them, and if you don't realize and acknowledge all this, then you are not a real Christian.

Jesus Christ died for us on the cross, through that, Christ was delivering a clear message to us. If we refuse to accept that message, what rights do we have to call Jesus our Farther and Lord?
We must not walk before our Lord.

The disciples and followers of Jesus Christ had to witness the act of crucifixion upon our Lord. Yet they didn't take any action afterwards for revenge, it is because it conflicts with what Jesus Christ teaches us and it would render his sacrifice obsolete if we abandon his teaching.

Jesus Christ suffered through physical and emotional pain beyond any one of us here, and undoubtedly beyond anyone of this world. After all the pain Christ suffered, he refuses to take action that human beings would usually take to make themselves feel better; such as act of revenge or prevention of emotional pain, self-justifying action, etc.

Jesus Christ let us know that we are not the one who can judge our own action, therefore he refuses to engage in those acts.

[Kurieuo]

I don't see what forgiveness has to do with protecting the innocent?

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

The question of acting in defence of "good" is a very subjective way of looking at it. Subjective because what is "good." If good is defined strictly by God (as it should be.) then it is no longer subjective.

I think thats the difference with the "alley way attack" and a war by commandment of God.
God has not written down, "protect life in the ally." so we are subject to what we will choose God would have us do. The best we can do is allow everything he has placed in us to tell us the thing He would have us do each time we decide anything.
With defending or life. I believe life is a gift from God that, by being Christian, I must take care of. I hear people speak of takeing care of Gods temple (our bodies) and that means to live a healthy life well, doesn't that mean we should not allow others to harm our bodies. Our body, as Christians, are part of the body of Christ- as a Christian responsible for Gods hands on earth should we allow someone to chop off one of those hands? I don't think so. Is a police officer committing a sin buy shooting the bank robber as he runs out the bank guns blazing? I don't think so yet he has killed another human. The idea of all the commandments is summed up in best in Matt 22:37-40 I believe all commandments must be looked at in light of this scripture. We must love God first and thats or first consideration. Then we must love others as we love ourself. Killing the person that will kill me or another human I ask-Is the work God doing in me worth protecting? I say yes. Is the innocent bystander shown love by me stopping the killer? I say yes. If the bystander is out of range as you say there is still the consideration of what that person(the one that holds the gun) will do later if simply let go, more murder? Out of Love for God and love for others I would feel within Gods will to protect his body and stop the threatful person. And I do believe the body I so often call my own truly belongs to Him as well as all Christian bodies belong to Him. To those that would do nothing but pray(let me say we must pray) I would say no church would be built if a human only prayed and took no action to pick up the hammer and nail the nails based on believe in what God would have them do. I believe this spiritual view carries into a modern war as well. Take a country that the government has subject to genocide, poverty, and taken all manner of freedom and voice from the people is it Christ like love that we do nothing to help those people? Would Christ have us protect those peoples ability to worship Him or eat without being killed? My father was a military man that served four tours in Vietnam and had problems dealing with this very topic. A minister explained it as the word used for thou shall not kill is better translated murder. Whats the difference between murder and killing in defence of God? Murder is to serve your own desire. As Christians we must put aside our own desire for Gods desire ie Love the lord God with all your heart....AND we must love others as ourselfs. If you were committing such horrible atrocities such as genocide or killing people for nothing more than walking down the street with a bible, for the love of God, wouldn't you want someone to stop you? I would rather die than to be found doing some of the things governments have done to there people. I would rather someone kill me so that God may be aloud to be worshiped instead of being aloud to continue. Just my view of what the bible says we should take action on things.

[Anonymous]

I don't equate Christ following the fathers will and subjecting Himself to the cross is an example how man should not defend himself. When Christ went to the cross it wasn't a matter of not defending himself it was a matter of subjecting himself to the will of God. That is our example, we must subject ourselfs to God not man. Do you think Christ let the money changers stop his throwing them out of the church? I'm sure he didn't just ask them to leave-He threw the out. Christ is not a example of subjecting ones self to other men it is one of subjecting yourself to God. I do believe God wants us to take action and stop murder.

[Anonymous]

The issue here is that killing a MAN is a sin and no situation can make it otherwise and therefore forgiveness is key. If killing a man happens to save another, then ok, but again we aren't judged by our good deeds.

As christians, i think we should be saving lives, but this is not so much about the saving of the body but about saving the true life that exist at the level of the soul. The bible says many times that we should not fear the one's who can destroy our body, but rather fear God who can destroy both body and soul. This is important I think in that we should do our best to obey God's laws and if we stray from them, we shall find forgiveness in Christ.

If I save a non-christians body, but not his soul, i would say i've done nothing and it would be best not resort to the killing of another to do so.

[Kurieuo]

The issue here is that killing a MAN is a sin and no situation can make it otherwise and therefore forgiveness is key. If killing a man happens to save another, then ok, but again we aren't judged by our good deeds.

What do you make of God implementing capital punishment for Israel? You might think that's being picky, but it's important to make a distinction between "killing" and "murder."

As for not being judged, I'm sure you don't mean to imply we should only care about doing good because we will be judged? I would prefer to think of it in the light that I want to do what is right because I love God. Sometimes I think Christians are so focused on saving a soul, they forget about the person who is attached to the body. The most powerful witness is ones character, and that means helping people in the here and now despite whether or not one can see any eternal benefit. Jesus did after all say, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." (Matt 25:45)

Kurieuo.

[SourceofLiFe]

What do you consider as "innocent"? Who is it to judge whether the person is "innocent" or not?

Definitely not anyone in this world but God.

We don't live inside anyone else besides ourselves. Only God has that ability to truly live inside someone for eternity.


What difference is it for innocent life and non-innocent life?

It is still life, and Jesus Christ want us to save all life regardless of their status - even our enemies.

So we shouldn't be saving life only because the person is a good person and is considered "innocent."

We should save all life whether the person is good or bad, that is the message Christ delivered.

Do not conflict with the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I said, never walk before our Lord. Yet some of you are walking before the Lord, finding reasons to self-justify conflicts of our Lord's teaching.

We must save people by their soul, not their physical body.

How many times can we save someone by physical standards? Not many times, if the person can expose to danger once, chances are it will happen again. Theres a time for both life and death, the environment is dangerous, anything can happen to remove one's physical presence beyond our control.

What we can do however is to save one's inner-self, by helping their soul and leading them to our Lord Jesus.

Through Jesus Christ, their souls will be saved and they shall live for eternity.

What you consider as saving their physical body is not truly saving.

The person can still be in pain, depression and many other emotional conflicts that deny peace and prosperity. Saving their physical body one time will only help them once, and they are continually expose to the same danger. It's basically a loop that gets no where.

On the other hand, saving one by their soul is what last for eternity. Bringing them peace everyday, through every hour and minutes.

It's a lasting effect.

We must bring people back to our Lord.

Ones who see their own death as a terrible event are those who aren't in peace. They haven't accomplished their life and does not feel fulfilled.

Those who have peace in them, feeling accomplished and fulfilled will be able to accept death anytime and ready to rest in peace.

It's our soul that change the way on how we react and perceive death.

Therefore we must save people by their soul by leading them toward Jesus Christ. Only Jesus Christ can truly save souls.

Peace be with you as peace can only be found upon our Lord.

[Kurieuo]

What do you consider as "innocent"? Who is it to judge whether the person is "innocent" or not?

That's a play on my words. The way I intended "innocent" was as in an "innocent victim" of say a murderer. That is not to say the innocent person is entirely righteous, but just means they are innocent in the sense that their being murdered would have been entirely unprovoked.

We should save all life whether the person is good or bad, that is the message Christ delivered.

And what if all life can't be saved? What if someone is going to kill your family, but you have the ability to risk your life and stop that person one way or another. Would you not intervene?

We must save people by their soul, not their physical body.

Wrong. How can it be our duty to save people, if we can't even save ourselves? Only Christ saves, and we are to be His light on Earth. And how better to serve this purpose then helping those in physical need?

Kurieuo.