Ethics on killing?

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
SourceofLiFe
Recognized Member
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:14 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#106

Post by SourceofLiFe » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:52 am

Let me make a final comment on all this discussion.

Before you assume and judge, spend some time to read all my post.

The problem I have with mastermind is very simple.

I am against swearing
I am against tattoo
I am against killing
I am against homosexuality.

For all that I am against, I have strong reasons to against it and if you spend some time to read other threads, you will see why.

Now everytime when I am against those that I consider wrongfulness, mastermind comes directly opposite of me and tries to clash against me with "justification" to decieve oneself into thinking that these wrongful acts are acceptable as long given "certain terms".

For example, he say swearing is good for venting away anger.

I encourage people to be close to God, because there wouldn't be any anger to vent away, therefore one wouldn't be angry and one wouldn't be swearing, for that is how peace is found as peace can only be find upon God.

As for Tattoo, it is wrong to assosiate that in the name of the Lord. If God once set that law, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow the old law just because we have the option not to follow. The new law is different, because Satan has corrupted the development of mankind.

To think that it is not wrong to have tattoo just because you like to think that way, as long as you don't have the thought, that doesn't make it not wrong.

Most bad people " punks, death metal, etc." have tattoos, the number of those people are far greater than the "Artist Christian" you refer to.

Even those Artist Christian type probably don't realize the significance of the meaning.

When you accept a part of Satan, doesn't matter how big the part is, you are digging a hole in yourself, the hole can get bigger or smaller, but regardless you still dug a hole. And when you do that, you become more vulnerable for Satan to target.

Doesn't matter that today you are with God, I know people who are with God and turned AGAINST God afterwards. So to have a hole within you, that is having a part of Satan in you, even if you don't mentally assosiate it with evil, the meaning of that still remains, because the meaning was not created by you.

Understand that my friend.

Now onto killing, what gives us the right to kill anyone when Jesus Christ suffer everything due to our sins and teach us to forgive people?

Is killing the teaching of Christ? No it isn't. And what disturbed my greatly is that mastermind seems to think he has Christ live through him, yet he tries to question killing and is always a direct conflict to my stand point of "killing is not the right resolution to bring peace." Killing is wrong.


Now homosexuality, I am very much against it, because it is not what falls under God's will.

Can two man create another human being?
Can two female sex in the animal chain create another life?
Can two male sex in the animal chain create another life?

You can't, Mastermind seems to t hink that people are born gay so they can't be a sin to being gay. That is prejudice.

I think everyone are born with the option to not like men and not turn toward homosexuality, it is their environment that influence them. And it is because they aren't strong enough to withstand against it. They did not took the proper action to become close to God to seek strength. They turned homosexual, and to turn you need to take action, otherwise you cannot accelerate the turning point.

So it is their action that led them to homosexuality, and people need to take responsibility of their own action and not blame it onto other aspect and claiming that it is not wrong. Trying to self-justify and deceive the meaning is wrong. And to even try to spread that deception is act of Satan.

Satan don't want the spread of mankind, Satan is direct conflict of God.

God Almighty created Adam and Eve, God Almighty created Man and Woman to be fruitful and spread rapidly.

Satan is the one who would try to stop that.

Like I said before, I am not against Mastermind, I am against his actions.

I don't blame him, because sometimes action he took may not be under his true willingness but still took the action regardless. So he can be forgiven.

Just tell me is Jesus Christ more on this side or that side?

"Not to kill
Not to swear
Not to engage in homosexuality
Not to engage in tattoo"

Or this side?

"To kill if you think is right
To Swear on your own will
To engage in homosexuality if you think it is not wrong
To engage in tattoo if you don't think it is wrong"

Remember, Christ knows that we human beings don't know ourselves as much as God knows us. So that is why we cannot trust our own action and must trust the Lord's action.
That is why he taught us.

Mastermind can keep on making me seem like a person who is a manipulator, just remember that is nalso what Satan did to Jesus. And the fact is what I stand by is closer to God than what he is standing by.

Read every single post of mine and see if I am what he say I am or if my advice is particularly against God's will.

I'm sure you will be more informed to make your decision as to what to accept and what not to accept.

This is not aboout me vs against Mastermind, it is more like he is strugging with a part of himself.

Perhaps one day you will understand what I mean MAstermind, I hope to see that day from you.

Until then, peace be with you.
I feel that I have completed my mission on this forum and offer enough for people to make a informed decision, therefore I will no longer participate in the discussion.

Just remember people, be very careful on advice given here. And you can verify whether which advice is closer to God by consulting with Christian who serve for God for many years, perhaps a senior who serve for our Lord for 70 years plus.

You will see.

Take care and may God encourage you all to find the truth.

One more thing, I encourage people to dig up all the threads I participated in, as it may give you a more inform decision as to what to accept and what not to accept.

I hope my contribution have elevated the quality of your decision.

Thank you very much everyone. May you be with God after God's leadership at all times!

I am never against true Christian, I am only against those who pretends to be Christian and tries to provide alternative to the absolute ways of God's side.

User avatar
Mastermind
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:22 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#107

Post by Mastermind » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:51 pm

Let me make a final comment on all this discussion.

Before you assume and judge, spend some time to read all my post.

The problem I have with mastermind is very simple.

I am against swearing
I am against tattoo
I am against killing
I am against homosexuality.

For all that I am against, I have strong reasons to against it and if you spend some time to read other threads, you will see why.


Your reasoning is flawed, you bring no Biblical support, and yet you are right...


Now everytime when I am against those that I consider wrongfulness, mastermind comes directly opposite of me and tries to clash against me with "justification" to decieve oneself into thinking that these wrongful acts are acceptable as long given "certain terms".

Apart from one conversation, it was you who clashed with me my friend.


For example, he say swearing is good for venting away anger.

I encourage people to be close to God, because there wouldn't be any anger to vent away, therefore one wouldn't be angry and one wouldn't be swearing, for that is how peace is found as peace can only be find upon God.


Manipulation and twisting of words is often Satan's tool, a tool of which you seem rather fond of using.

How about you just let it be? Swearing is only as bad as you feel it is. The occasional cuss word when you bang your head into a wall isn't going to kill you. It's also a useful way to vent anger, instead of pounding somebody in the face.

If you will read my statement, you will realise that I recommended it as an alternative to something worse. In addition, I later on made my position on swearing even clearer, yet you keep bringing it up.

As for Tattoo, it is wrong to assosiate that in the name of the Lord. If God once set that law, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow the old law just because we have the option not to follow. The new law is different, because Satan has corrupted the development of mankind.

Actually, yes it does. If I don't have to follow it, why should I? We were given the new law for a reason. The old law does not have to be followed. If you wish to debate against it, take it up with Jesus and the Apostoles, but I hope you don't shave your sideburns and your clothes aren't made of more than one material, lest you look like a hypocrite.


To think that it is not wrong to have tattoo just because you like to think that way, as long as you don't have the thought, that doesn't make it not wrong.

Most bad people " punks, death metal, etc." have tattoos, the number of those people are far greater than the "Artist Christian" you refer to.

Even those Artist Christian type probably don't realize the significance of the meaning.

When you accept a part of Satan, doesn't matter how big the part is, you are digging a hole in yourself, the hole can get bigger or smaller, but regardless you still dug a hole. And when you do that, you become more vulnerable for Satan to target.


You might want to read what the old law says about tatoos:

Leviticus (19:28): "Ye shall not make any cuttings on your flesh for the dead nor print any marks upon you."


"You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead.


Doesn't matter that today you are with God, I know people who are with God and turned AGAINST God afterwards. So to have a hole within you, that is having a part of Satan in you, even if you don't mentally assosiate it with evil, the meaning of that still remains, because the meaning was not created by you.

Understand that my friend.


Romans 14 disagrees.


Now onto killing, what gives us the right to kill anyone when Jesus Christ suffer everything due to our sins and teach us to forgive people?

Is killing the teaching of Christ? No it isn't. And what disturbed my greatly is that mastermind seems to think he has Christ live through him, yet he tries to question killing and is always a direct conflict to my stand point of "killing is not the right resolution to bring peace." Killing is wrong.


What do peace and forgiveness have to do with defending somebody else? You keep sprouting unrelated nonsense, I'm not even sure why I'm still debating with you.


Now homosexuality, I am very much against it, because it is not what falls under God's will.

Can two man create another human being?
Can two female sex in the animal chain create another life?
Can two male sex in the animal chain create another life?


What do homosexual acts of lust have to do with being gay? Oh yeah, I forgot, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT BEING GAY IS!

You can't, Mastermind seems to t hink that people are born gay so they can't be a sin to being gay. That is prejudice.

Seeing how you have no Biblical reference, and the Catholic Church (which is usually very conservative on most matters) agrees with me, your opinion may be conveniently ignored, as it does not matter.

I think everyone are born with the option to not like men and not turn toward homosexuality, it is their environment that influence them. And it is because they aren't strong enough to withstand against it. They did not took the proper action to become close to God to seek strength. They turned homosexual, and to turn you need to take action, otherwise you cannot accelerate the turning point.

So it is their action that led them to homosexuality, and people need to take responsibility of their own action and not blame it onto other aspect and claiming that it is not wrong. Trying to self-justify and deceive the meaning is wrong. And to even try to spread that deception is act of Satan.


Again, your opinion. Why would somebody choose to be gay? I'm sure many of them love being made fun of, beaten and get murdered for it.

Satan don't want the spread of mankind, Satan is direct conflict of God.

God Almighty created Adam and Eve, God Almighty created Man and Woman to be fruitful and spread rapidly.

Satan is the one who would try to stop that.


Like I said before, I am not against Mastermind, I am against his actions.

I don't blame him, because sometimes action he took may not be under his true willingness but still took the action regardless. So he can be forgiven.


Funny you keep bringing up forgiveness, as if you are certain I am wrong and you are right.

Just tell me is Jesus Christ more on this side or that side?

"Not to kill
Not to swear
Not to engage in homosexuality
Not to engage in tattoo"

Or this side?

"To kill if you think is right
To Swear on your own will
To engage in homosexuality if you think it is not wrong
To engage in tattoo if you don't think it is wrong"


How about this side(as decreed by the Bible)

Not to murder
Not to swear
Not to engage in homosexual acts
Not to have tatoos willingly representing something God is against.


Remember, Christ knows that we human beings don't know ourselves as much as God knows us. So that is why we cannot trust our own action and must trust the Lord's action.
That is why he taught us.


Indeed, and His actions, as decreed by the Bible, are what I followed.

Mastermind can keep on making me seem like a person who is a manipulator, just remember that is nalso what Satan did to Jesus. And the fact is what I stand by is closer to God than what he is standing by.

Funny you should bring up Satan and manipulation.

Read every single post of mine and see if I am what he say I am or if my advice is particularly against God's will.

I'm sure you will be more informed to make your decision as to what to accept and what not to accept.

This is not aboout me vs against Mastermind, it is more like he is strugging with a part of himself.

Perhaps one day you will understand what I mean MAstermind, I hope to see that day from you.


If I am struggling against something, I highly doubt you would know what that is. You've broken one of the ten commendments by lying about my church attendance, refuse to admit it and further lie that is not "what you meant", why should I trust you? Give me one reason why I should assume you are right and I might.

Until then, peace be with you.
I feel that I have completed my mission on this forum and offer enough for people to make a informed decision, therefore I will no longer participate in the discussion.

Just remember people, be very careful on advice given here. And you can verify whether which advice is closer to God by consulting with Christian who serve for God for many years, perhaps a senior who serve for our Lord for 70 years plus.


How about we consult with the Holy Book, which is available for all of us to read and gather answers from?

Do me one favor. Next time you give your opinion, add a verse or two from the Bible to support it, as I am no longer sure if you truly are trying to do God's work.

SourceofLiFe
Recognized Member
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:14 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#108

Post by SourceofLiFe » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:24 pm

Mastermind, this is my final reply to you.

The judgment day is getting closer, what you do today, God shall judge you.

Regarding the so called "lies" about your church attendance, I think you are the one that falsify the facts by saying I said you admit to it when I never even used the word "admit" so it is you who think that way.
If you truly obey the rules of the bible, then you wouldn't make the topics to question it :)

Whatever you say, I will disregard it from this point on, because I'm not a part of your own war.

User avatar
Mastermind
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:22 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#109

Post by Mastermind » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:09 pm

you don't need to use the word admit. there is more than one word for every meaning my friend. Semantics won't change the core of your message.

Anonymous
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#110

Post by Anonymous » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:30 pm

This has to stop...this post is not about swearing, homosexuals, or tattoos!
Lets stay on topic and here is something to think about:

Both of you guys are christians and I see no reason for this posting warfare thats already locked up a topic. You guys have beliefs that conflict only partially, but regardless, these minor topics shouldn't lead to what is happening here.

It's time you guys reconcile and move on towards tackling the issue's at hand instead of tackling eachother :?

Anonymous
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

We are ALL, "bad people."

#111

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:35 am

Christ loved all people with a greater love than any human ever can or will. To have feeling of love for a man or woman is not wrong. To have sex with the same sex is wrong, not to love

To say "most people who have tattoos or dress a certain way, are bad people"...well I think that is how all pregudicial statements start, a classification based on a person as a complete description of the group. IE "most white guys like crackers." I am white, I don't like crackers.

If you are trying to decide if you should get a tattoo and if that would be a sin. Read the scripture for your self. Look into the persons that where tattooing and the reasons for the tattoos then. PRAY. I have read the scripture, I have done the research. I will continue to tattoo, I have tattoos, and I see no reason not to get another if I come up with some tricky art. I am a Christian with the evidence of the Holy Spirit in my life through the the wounders God has worked in and through my life. There is no evil magic in ink. If my skin is scratched by a twig there is no evil magic. So if a needle scratches my skin and ink is placed in it then there is no evil magical force claiming my spirit. If you believe that tattooing is a sin by no means do it. A mark you put on yourself or allow to be put on you to show association with a religious sect I understand to be what the scripture was instructing the people of God to refrain from. If you have a different view so be it that is your decision. I will not instruct a Christian who has put some ink on there skin that they have committed some sacred act to open a doorway for satan to effect there life or soul. I can understand how someone may misunderstand the scripture but, I think its do to a lack of knowledge of the persons, that were and why they were, marking themselves. I really shouldn't have spent so much time on tattoos. The real point is we cant with a Christian view point start looking at people and because they dress in punk clothing or listen to music we don't like or have marks on there bodies we don't like assume they all can be classified as "bad people." Christianity teaches, we are ALL bad people compaired to what is really good. But as Paul the apostle wrote, he continued to have the thorn in his flesh, we all have parts we are waiting for God to clean up and some of it wont happen until we put on the uncorruptable body. To call the other group of people bad people you have to put yourself into the good group and that is were the fall will come. You, me, them are no more a good person than Adam or Cain or any one. We are all simply humans. Take a close look at the character of the prophets of the old testament. They did some pretty wild things. They were far from what may be called, "good" people. No we are all in the same boat. There is no them and us there is only us. With God we have hope but that does not make us a better person, God is the one doing the work in us and if we were left to helping ourself to get closer to God, none of us would make it. Lets not discard or label a group of people based on what clothes they have or music of even if they have life committing love for another. Let's educate each other and then maybe if we are willing to learn we can stop the prejudice. And just for information prejudice is defined not only a an opinion formed before the facts are known as in preconceived unfavorable idea but also a an opinion held in disregard of the facts that contradict the preconception. As in the idea that all people that ...(fill in the blank) ... are, " bad people."

As to the real start of this thread. For those that believe the law, shall not kill is translated from an original text that carried the meaning that all killing is a sin please answer these four questions.
One: Why would God ask man to do what he had told man not to do?
Two: Where else in the Bible does God tell man to do what he has also said not to do?
Three: Do you eat pork?
Four: should we have a police force?

I have written all I have to say on tattoos, Love for another, and all the classification of persons.
I would like to hear what the answers to the four questions would be from anyone believing kill is a compleat description of the original text. Also please include the original Hebrew word and the definition and source you based your translation of the modern translated word kill. It would be interesting to see the results.

The edge
Established Member
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:20 pm
Christian: No
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#112

Post by The edge » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:18 am

Original Word Word Origin
xcr a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ratsach TWOT - 2208
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-tsakh' Verb

Definition
to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
(Pual) to be killed


I the what Sourceof Life had introduce into this thread is a little on the debate of Armenism vs Calvinism.
We don't do something because all have been pre-destinated - whether the girl ought to be raped or not, vs we do something as part of the free will of man.

I'm of the opinion (cos I'm cannot be as sure of SOL that I'm right) that the bible teaches us in the question posed by Mastermind that:
1) We need to act to protect the those around us (help the girl escape)
2) run away if we can to save ourselves or even to preach to the crook if they are receptive.
3) Stay & get killed or beaten up if there's a higher purpose to be fulfilled thru it.

Where I get this from?
1) Jesus anger & action at the temple is to protect the sanctity of the temple & the people from further corruption
2) Jesus escape from the crowd when they threaten to throw Him over the cliff
3) Paul & Jesus staying the course even with the knowledge that they will be jailed & persecuted.

I disagree with inaction on the above example. If we don't stop the action, how would we be able to then preach the gospel.
We can't just say pray or mind your own biz cos she deserve it.
We're told to give bread when it is needed & not to send a man away simply saying that God will take care of you.
Would saving the physical life vs giving a tract to hopefully save the soul be more urgent in the above circumstances? I think the answer is obvious.

I've not read thru all other discussions, but to me, asking a questions or challenging the norm does not consitute trying to justify sin.

I do however have a little problem in my above logic in vigilante protection when it comes to the story of Peter cutting off the ear of the soldier.
Jesus said, those who act by the sword, dies by the sword. What is Jesus trying to teach?

Anonymous
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

very well said

#113

Post by Anonymous » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:39 pm

Thank you for such a thoughtful and informative response. I dont really have any thing to add to this. I only wanted to thank you for responding with reason for what you believe the Bible teaches as well as the definition to the original text. I think this sheds some light on the subject that are worth consideration based on some interesting facts that are very well stated. If a person reads the whole thread my view point is given many times so I wont elaberate any further.
To ask God why he commands, should be an effort to understand Him and His desire for us. I hope people are pulled to Gods word through this thread and line of thinking. Why would God command armies to kill other armies when He also commands us not to kill. I think the only true answer can come from careful study of the word and prayer. To all that seek with a true heart the answer will be given in Gods perfect time.

markdaniel1
Newbie Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:27 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Ethics on killing?

#114

Post by markdaniel1 » Tue May 07, 2013 6:41 am

My question on all of this is, In reference to Moses and the freeing of his people, including the red sea episode. Also the great flood. Both of them were actions that showed the might of God. However there are numerous instances in the bible where battles were fought ( supposedly by God's command ) that wiped out total civilizations. My question is why would a God who is capable, of performing these acts, and after reminding the leaders of God's laws prior to the battles, ask the leaders to break his laws and promote their power instead of showing, once again, his own power?

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Ethics on killing?

#115

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue May 07, 2013 4:53 pm

markdaniel1 wrote:My question is why would a God who is capable, of performing these acts, and after reminding the leaders of God's laws prior to the battles, ask the leaders to break his laws and promote their power instead of showing, once again, his own power?
Your question isn't clear. You may want to clarify by giving examples from the Bible. God doesn't change and has not told anyone to break his laws.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Ethics on killing?

#116

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Tue May 07, 2013 6:28 pm

markdaniel1 wrote:My question on all of this is, In reference to Moses and the freeing of his people, including the red sea episode. Also the great flood. Both of them were actions that showed the might of God. However there are numerous instances in the bible where battles were fought ( supposedly by God's command ) that wiped out total civilizations. My question is why would a God who is capable, of performing these acts, and after reminding the leaders of God's laws prior to the battles, ask the leaders to break his laws and promote their power instead of showing, once again, his own power?

You might be interested in a book called "Is God a Moral Monster" by Paul Copan.

It goes into great detail on OT laws and also OT wars.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Post Reply