Ethics on killing?

Discussion for Christian perspectives on ethical issues such as abortion, euthanasia, sexuality, and so forth.
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Mastermind
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Ethics on killing?

#1

Post by Mastermind » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:48 pm

What does the Bible say about killing? I would guess from the start that murder(my definition of murder is killing without good cause) is wrong. But what about killing in war, or killing to protect another? Mercy killing(assisted suicide, etc)? Self defense? What is everybody's opinion?

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#2

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:16 am

In the bible, it clearly listed that human taking away another human's life is wrong.

No matter what cause, there is no justification.

What is "good cause"? Who is the one that judge the "cause"?
Is the judgement correct? God don't need a cause for his mighty action.

Maybe you are forced to the action due from environmental impact, but if you free yourself from those impact, then you wouldn't be affected.

Perhaps if a criminal committed a crime to the laws of the Bible, then their consequences will be due. Which ever form of the consequence is beyond our control. And even the executor who execute the crime may be forgiven, because they are following an order by God's law.

But do not let politics confuse you, as they are not by God's law, therefore operating through lies and deceptions to justify a cause is wrong.

Do not try to justify darkness under the name of the Lord, that is wrong.

To kill, you must have that intention. If you have that thought, you are having the darkside taking control of you.

Just as no one has the right to take your arms off from you, in comparison, you also don't have that right.

God has God ways of punishment, and it is illustrated in the Bible.

God will use his superior power to punish those who is due to punishment.

We have no right to judge. Only God has the right and position to do so, we can only try to comprehend the judgement by his words and his laws.

In the Bible, you will see God using his mightiness through storm, winds, weather effect, plague and other great power that cannot be imitate by human means.

This is a very complex topic, it is complex because it force people to learn more about it deeply.

May peace be with all of us.
Last edited by SourceofLiFe on Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#3

Post by Mastermind » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:27 am

But God also ordered the Israelites into war to punish other nations, which is why this topic is worthy of a good discussion.

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#4

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:36 am

The clear difference is that, that's an direct order from God, so God can forgive us. God is absolute right, he holds wisdom that we often don't understand. So following his order is white justifying white. His words are beyond cause. There is no limitation no ground to be on through God.

But how many times have we heard of an War that is actually from the word of God?

Most of the wars are issue from people who manipulate others through the environment and claiming justification in the name of the Lord.

That is deception, that is base on a lie and that in itself is darkness trying to justify darkness.

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#5

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:48 am

In other words, the war is not a war between human vs human.

It is a war between God vs Satan, Good vs Evil.

When God order the Israelites to fight against other nations, the war is no longer on a human level.

It became a spiritual war.

Most war are base on human level. Therefore it is not right and don't justify the cause. Because we obey God and follow God's ways, and if God does not walk, we do not walk. God is the absolute leader and righteousness. So if there is a need, God will appear and give us order from his mighty words. And to walk before the Lord is a disobedience to the Lord, therefore that is wrong.

I hope that answer some of your questions. :)

May peace be upon mankind.

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#6

Post by Mastermind » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:07 am

If a nation was to make an attack against Christianity, would it be considered an act of Satan then? And if we fought back, would it be just?

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#7

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:18 am

It is really simple if you use your heart to look into the matter and not your brain.

It is only justified when we are obeying the Lord and following his steps.

If the Lord don't walk, even if Christianity is being attacked, and we have the power to fight back but doesn't do it, that shows faith and commitment to the Lord.

That shows that we are willing to sacrifice ourselves to be under God's direction. If God doesn't walk, we don't walk. Who knows the path more and greater than the Lord? No one. The Lord is the creator, only the Lord can lead us. Anyone who attempts to walk in front of the Lord is being proud, and those who have pride in themselves are those who will face consequences. We don't need to be proud at all, we just need to make our Lord proud of us :)

Do not forget, Satan was an Angel, a fallen Angel because Satan had pride in himself.

Satan is the one who tries to walk before the Lord, before his creator.

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#8

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:38 am

To conclude this for you.

I will offer some insight.

The best for mankind is to be close to the Lord.

When the situation and environment is testing us, testing our commitment and faith to the Lord, it is best to be close to the Lord.

Being close to the Lord is the best thing that can happen, it is what people fight for in their entire life.

When we have the opportunity to be close to the Lord, through our trust, obidience and faith in our Lord, what else can we ask for?

Sure, others are attacking Christianity, but if the Lord is not concern, why should we be concerned? Have faith in our Lord. Be truthful to the Lord, and follow his leadership and direction truthfully no matter what the circumstances are.

Those who bail out to protect themselves in the name of the Lord are not really following the Lord's way.

The Lord will protect us.

Put it in picture, if Satan is attacking us, Christianity, and we have the ability to fight back. Imagine we are at the center, and locked in position and attackers coming from all sides with only one exit. Finding excuses to run away in the name of the Lord for the sake of the Lord is false. You have to truly trust God. And those who obey God and follow his direction step by step after him are those that will deserve to be close to him. So even if we will die, be honor to die for the Lord, because we never disobey him. Our God is loving, and he will reward us in other means.

You should not obey God because of the reward, you should obey God because he is your God.

It's that simple my friend.

Think about it and may God be with you at all times :)

I hope you will follow God no matter how tough the circumstances are, because why worry when the creator of everything is not concerned?

You're not truthfully entrusting him when you go on your own. By worrying when God is not concern, you are going on your own.

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#9

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:50 am

Just remember, there is no need for justification when we are obeying God's order. God is the absolute right.

Be very careful to not be confused by God's order and deceptions.

God will make us know it is his orders when it is necessary.


If you still have any question, re-read what I type and try to think of it deeply, then you shall understand :)

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#10

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:10 pm

Mastermind,

Some issues touched upon I believe would be related to some other threads if interested:

Defense for OT violence at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=108, and The mind of Moses - Midianite cruelty? at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=156

Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#11

Post by Mastermind » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:00 pm

I have read that Moses article before. I have, however, looked much further into this than you two imply. While I would never abandon hope and trust in God, I realise that just like Moses's war, things are never that simple. Let me give an example. Say I am walking down a dark alley, and I see severeral criminals trying to rape a girl. I manage to knock them away from her, giving her enough time to run. Just then, their leader takes out a gun and points it at me. Knowing myself, I would probably start reciting Psalm 23 while making a grab for the gun. Guns are useless at close range and if you know how to dispose of them they aren't really much threat. The question is, should do it? As I see it, I have these options:

1: Do nothing. Our doctrine states that if our time has come, it has come and I accept it. In addition, I should be ready to sacrifice my life for the sake of good. Not reacting with violence may seem the most Christian choice.

2: Grab for the gun, try to subdue them with words, and if they don't take the hint and attack, shoot(usually in the legs, unless they all have guns in which case I probably won't bother to aim for specific parts).

Personally, although option one may seem more Christian, the consequences it might result over long term could be much worse than just my own skin. What if after they kill me, they chase down the girl and kill her too? What if they go on to kill more people, something I could have possibly avoided by at least attempting a citizen arrest? You could say God decides when our time comes, but frankly, that is God's concern, not mine. God will take lives when their time comes, regardless of which choice I make. If my death and the death of others as a result of my inaction happens, it is God's will. If I prolonge the lives of those that might have gotten hurt, it is still God's will. I could sit there waiting for God to make a miraculous appearance and tell me what to do, but He seldomly works this way. I do trust that I will feel what to do, but I would nevertheless like to know what others might do. After all, wisdom comes from understanding different points of view. And I suspect this issue is far more complicated than it may seem, even for a simpler encounter than the one I mentioned. And, of course, there is always the possibility God will not interfere at all, to see what choice I would make, and especially why, choice that I will have to justify upon judgement either way.

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portecting someone else?

#12

Post by Prodigal Son » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:51 pm

what if you kill someone in order to protect someone else?

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#13

Post by Mastermind » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:53 pm

That's basically what I said, except with more words.

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#14

Post by SourceofLiFe » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:09 pm

Mastermind wrote:I have read that Moses article before. I have, however, looked much further into this than you two imply.
Perhaps you looked too far in the wrong direction.

It doesn't help yourself when you are constantly finding excuses to abandon faith in our Lord.

There are things out of our control, there is not much we can do. Perhaps you don't like the idea of having someone else controlling your fate, but in my opinion it is best to have God to control my fate, because he is the creator.

In the situation you presented, protecting one's life by harming another life makes no difference. I think the best way to protect one's life during those critical moments is praying to our Lord.

Let God punish those who are due to punishment. We have no right to punish them or intercept God. You don't understand everyone's life as much as God do, therefore our judgement is inaccurate, whereas God's judgement is most accurate.

Hostility don't lead to peace.

I think I have given enough insight on this topic, so I leave it to you to accept it or reject it.

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#15

Post by Mastermind » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:17 pm

SourceofLiFe wrote:
Perhaps you looked too far in the wrong direction.

It doesn't help yourself when you are constantly finding excuses to abandon faith in our Lord.

There are things out of our control, there is not much we can do. Perhaps you don't like the idea of having someone else controlling your fate, but in my opinion it is best to have God to control my fate, because he is the creator.

In the situation you presented, protecting one's life by harming another life makes no difference. I think the best way to protect one's life during those critical moments is praying to our Lord.

Let God punish those who are due to punishment. We have no right to punish them or intercept God. You don't understand everyone's life as much as God do, therefore our judgement is inaccurate, whereas God's judgement is most accurate.

Hostility don't lead to peace.

I think I have given enough insight on this topic, so I leave it to you to accept it or reject it.
The Moses article showed clearly that the Israelites were justified in waging war. What if the Spirit does request that I act? I would never display hostility for the sake of punishment, but if it must be done to protect the good from the evil, so be it. You're right, my judgement is inaccurate, but if I act against them, is it not God's will still? Perhaps God wanted them to be punished, or perhaps they will learn a valuable lesson that might turn them from their evil ways. God helps those who are willing to accept His help. I don't have to sit and do nothing while waiting for God to drop a lightningbolt and save me. If I act, I act with God. Do you sit around all day hoping God will drop food, shelter and money from the sky while you pray? Because from what I see, God doesn't work that way.

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