catholics/christians

[kateliz]

Mastermind, did you have to throw this one at me? I've struggled a lot over what I thought was Jame's direct opposition to Paul's theology, and for some months declared to people ( ) that James doesn't belong in the Bible, and as a result of that I also declared to people that the Bible was fallible! But now my vision has cleared up. So I have met Mr. James! What you're talking about, though, by quoting him like that, is to say you do in fact need works plus faith to save. Do you believe this for yourself? Or were you saved solely on the basis of faith? Did you, at the moment of your confession of Christ as Lord, walk an old lady across the street? I doubt it. Here, these are some verses I put together during that time, calling them "The Contrast of James and Paul" (Paul goes first, James second):

Romans 3:28
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

Romans 4:2-5
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."
James 2:20-34,26
"But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which said, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.... For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

They seemed to clearly be contradictory to me back then, but now I understand how they go hand-in-hand. You see, you get saved by faith alone. Then after you're a new creation in Christ the inevitable result is works. If there's no works afterward, then it's proof you're not a real Christian.

Matthew 7:16-20
You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you'll recognize them by their fruit.

That's the point at which these seeming contradictions meet and make sense together. That's where we can both agree, MM. Saved by faith alone, but afterwards must come works. 2 Peter 1:5-11 backs this up also.
However, you do not rely on the works for salvation, as I already said. Relying on Christ's sacrifice, the free gift, plus your own works, for which you earn wages, is not the way of Biblical salvation. Faith first, then after receiving the Holy Spirit, works must come.

It doesn't. Funny enough, this verse is used to twist scripture all the time. Last time I saw it, some dude was claiming Jesus was gay. His misinterpretation is about as innacurate as yours is.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You make me regret not buying a Catechism yet! A lot of Catholics do worship Mary. And didn't you see all the people worshipping pope John Paul II? There's a point where it crosses from simple honor to worship. I don't think you can detect it too easily! How many of those who would die to just touch the hem of his garment would find it pure bliss to kneel before him and kiss his "ring"? This is worship. This attitude should only be held towards God. And tell me this, why do Catholic priests get called "Father"? Jesus said, "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your leader, that is, Christ." (Matthew 23:8-10) Jesus said that since we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we aren't to elevate one's position above the other's. It is wrong and unbiblical to call a priest "Father." We should call him "Brother," if not just his name! I refuse to call "my pastor" "pastor Noah," I call him Noah. He is a shepherd to his Brothers and Sisters, but this does not elevate him above us; he is still just our Brother in Christ.

We recognise great leaders, great actors, great singers. Why can't they recognise great Christians?

Please do so, but in a wholly appropriate way. And by the way, we are all saints who are sanctified by Christ, and we are sanctified by Christ all who are new creations because of the salvation by Him. I am a Saint. You, and hopefully most everyone else on this site, are Saints.

As people read about their WORKS they realise how much faith those people had.

True. And that's fine. I do the same thing with other Christians of old through whom God did many good works. He did great works through them because of their great faith.

You are proposing that we destroy anything that might help people simply because you think everybody can just say "I have faith". It's never that simple.

Funny, I don't remember saying anything of the sort! Please watch your phrasing, or I might just have to start calling you a false witness like SLP did of you and others! That really is a problem. You falsy generalized what I said through the influence of your bias. It is not what I meant at all. Let's be cut and dry here.

And by the way, do you align yourself with a denomination, or do you just call yourself Christian, as I do?

[Mastermind]

Mastermind, did you have to throw this one at me? I've struggled a lot over what I thought was Jame's direct opposition to Paul's theology, and for some months declared to people ( Sad ) that James doesn't belong in the Bible, and as a result of that I also declared to people that the Bible was fallible! Crying or Very sad But now my vision has cleared up. So I have met Mr. James! What you're talking about, though, by quoting him like that, is to say you do in fact need works plus faith to save. Do you believe this for yourself? Or were you saved solely on the basis of faith? Did you, at the moment of your confession of Christ as Lord, walk an old lady across the street? I doubt it. Here, these are some verses I put together during that time, calling them "The Contrast of James and Paul" (Paul goes first, James second):

There is no contrast. Faith saves us, however faith is supposed to inspire us to do good works. If we don't, then James is basically saying we don't really have any faith, and that makes sense.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You make me regret not buying a Catechism yet! A lot of Catholics do worship Mary. And didn't you see all the people worshipping pope John Paul II?

I think I'd rather get my info from actual catholics, because I keep hearing this stuff, but never from an actual catholic.

Please do so, but in a wholly appropriate way. And by the way, we are all saints who are sanctified by Christ, and we are sanctified by Christ all who are new creations because of the salvation by Him. I am a Saint. You, and hopefully most everyone else on this site, are Saints.

The EO and RCC have a different definiton of saint than you do. You're basically comparing a word shared by two "languages" that means two completely different things.

Funny, I don't remember saying anything of the sort! Please watch your phrasing, or I might just have to start calling you a false witness like SLP did of you and others! That really is a problem. You falsy generalized what I said through the influence of your bias. It is not what I meant at all. Let's be cut and dry here.

Your attitude gave it away. Whether you like it or not, that WAS what you gave away in your posts. You might want to try and display a bit less hostility towards the RCC otherwise people WILL misunderstand you. And stop mentioning SLP, I still have a bad taste in my mouth after barbequeing and eating hi... err, nevermind.

And by the way, do you align yourself with a denomination, or do you just call yourself Christian, as I do?

Well, I consider all Christians christian but I was born Greek Orthodox so if I have to give a denomination, I align myself with that one.

[kateliz]

There is no contrast. Faith saves us, however faith is supposed to inspire us to do good works. If we don't, then James is basically saying we don't really have any faith, and that makes sense.

That is exactly what I said. Good; we agree.

I think I'd rather get my info from actual catholics, because I keep hearing this stuff, but never from an actual catholic.

Give me a little bit on solid evidence for worshiping humans- you inspired me to finally start reading a book I ordered by mail possibly a year ago or more: The Gospel According to Rome by James G. McCarthy. He used to be a RC, and bases all of his arguments directly from the Catechism, the Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, papal documents, the Code of Canon Law, the Liturgy of the Church, the Roman Catechism, Summa Theologica, (Thomas Aquinas' explanation of Roman Catholicism,) and other catecisms and theology books by Catholic authors who's books have been "declared free of doctrinal or moral error by an official representative of the Church and printed with the seals Nihil Obstat, meaning Nothing Objectionable, and Imprimatur, Let It Be Printed."

The EO and RCC have a different definiton of saint than you do. You're basically comparing a word shared by two "languages" that means two completely different things.

I apologize. Please clarify the differences for me.

Mastermind: You are proposing that we destroy anything that might help people simply because you think everybody can just say "I have faith". It's never that simple.

kateliz: Funny, I don't remember saying anything of the sort!

Mastermind: Your attitude gave it away. Whether you like it or not, that WAS what you gave away in your posts.

Hmmm, no, I still disagree! That's not what I meant at all. I don't believe that we should, "destroy anything that might help people simply because think everybody can just say 'I have faith.'" I don't want to "destroy anything that might help people," I want to destroy everything that harms them. That was my overall attitude in my posts. Your bias against me being against rituals led you to this conclusion, which is false. I'm telling you, I don't believe that. Huh, I'd say that my intent was to "help people". How ironic. Despite your bias and both of us getting hot under the collar I think there's no ill-will here; tell me I'm right... just to verify.

You might want to try and display a bit less hostility towards the RCC otherwise people WILL misunderstand you.

Thanks for the warning, but I'd say that your hostility towards me is causing the most misunderstanding! Oh! this is fun! ...I'm sorry I'm just as passionate about the topic as you are. There, now can I have dessert Mommy? No, I understand you. (Do I? Who can understand someone with so little understanding... I just don't understand. ) If my passionate feelings is getting in the way, I'll try to reign them in as I've instructed others including yourself to do. But I still get to have cat-fights, right? Did people misunderstand John the Baptist when he called the Sadducees, (Pharisees? Spelling?) a "brood of vipers"? Or was misunderstanding caused by Jesus, (or someone else?) calling one of those two groups "whitewashed"? Again though, if my passion against false doctrine is clouding minds, please let me know; I'll attempt to rope the clouds and bring them back into the corral.

What do Greek Orthodox believe? Are they the ones that resemble, (to my eyes,) the RCC, and their preists wear black robes and funny hats, and do they have those curly tendrils that Rabbis sometimes do? If not, who is that? I'm not too good with denominations yet.

[Mastermind]

Give me a little bit on solid evidence for worshiping humans- you inspired me to finally start reading a book I ordered by mail possibly a year ago or more: The Gospel According to Rome by James G. McCarthy. He used to be a RC, and bases all of his arguments directly from the Catechism, the Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, papal documents, the Code of Canon Law, the Liturgy of the Church, the Roman Catechism, Summa Theologica, (Thomas Aquinas' explanation of Roman Catholicism,) and other catecisms and theology books by Catholic authors who's books have been "declared free of doctrinal or moral error by an official representative of the Church and printed with the seals Nihil Obstat, meaning Nothing Objectionable, and Imprimatur, Let It Be Printed."

And http://www.evilbible.com uses all of its arguments straight from the bible. Again, . I'm sure he has plenty of arguments, and the RCC has plenty of rebuttals. I have yet to see a catholic worshipping a human, and until one of these elusive Catholics makes themselves known to me, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Hmmm, no, I still disagree! That's not what I meant at all. I don't believe that we should, "destroy anything that might help people simply because think everybody can just say 'I have faith.'" I don't want to "destroy anything that might help people," I want to destroy everything that harms them. That was my overall attitude in my posts. Your bias against me being against rituals led you to this conclusion, which is false. I'm telling you, I don't believe that. Huh, I'd say that my intent was to "help people". How ironic. Despite your bias and both of us getting hot under the collar I think there's no ill-will here; tell me I'm right... just to verify.

I have no bias, actually. I don't think rituals are necessary and only uphold mine because I like them and choose to, not because I HAVE to. And I'm not getting hot under the collar at all. I bear no ill will to anybody, be they enemy or friend.

Thanks for the warning, but I'd say that your hostility towards me is causing the most misunderstanding!

What hostility? I have no hostility towards you, but perhaps you feel guilty of something, realised there SHOULD be some hostility towards you and allowed your emotions to distort your thinking. :p

Oh! this is fun! ...I'm sorry I'm just as passionate about the topic as you are. There, now can I have dessert Mommy? No, I understand you. (Do I? Who can understand someone with so little understanding... I just don't understand. ) If my passionate feelings is getting in the way, I'll try to reign them in as I've instructed others including yourself to do. But I still get to have cat-fights, right? Did people misunderstand John the Baptist when he called the Sadducees, (Pharisees? Spelling?sadducees and pharisees are two different political bodies with different beliefs about judaism)) a "brood of vipers"? Or was misunderstanding caused by Jesus, (or someone else?) calling one of those two groups "whitewashed"? Again though, if my passion against false doctrine is clouding minds, please let me know; I'll attempt to rope the clouds and bring them back into the corral.

My problem isn't your passion against false doctrine, it's about you going to anti RCC sources, getting one side of the story then coming here and whining about it. The only false doctrines the RCC teaches are the ones it "inherited" from medieval times (jubilee, purgatory) which were used for the sole purpose of relieving people of their monetary posessions.

What do Greek Orthodox believe? Are they the ones that resemble, (to my eyes,) the RCC, and their preists wear black robes and funny hats, and do they have those curly tendrils that Rabbis sometimes do? If not, who is that? I'm not too good with denominations yet.

Yes, those are the Greek Orthodox. Their doctrine is somewhere between RCC and Protestant,

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

What's the purpose of the icon Mastermind? I forgot, and never heard it from a primary source.

PS, what do Catholics call the pictures on your desktop? They don't believe in icons.

[Alanna]

Alrighty, I haven't read every post on this topic yet(still can't beleive I missed it!!) but once I do, you can expect me to post again However I still wish to make one comment...colors, I just want to say that I'm Catholic, and I have a relationship with Christ that is evergrowing. All the 'rituals' deepen that relationship for me.

I can't even imagine changing denominations...I would miss so much. Especially the physical presense of Jesus in the Eucharist. Which I only started appriciating and understanding a few short months ago. (which was when I only really started studying my faith)

I forget who said this, b/c I just skimed over this topic, but whoever said you 'hated the doctrines, not the Catholic church.' Is it possible that you hate the doctrines because you don't understand them? Bishop Fulton J sheen said 'not one hundred ppl in the USA hate the Catholic church, but millions hate what they falsley beleive to be the caholic church.' I think the same could be said for the doctrines and dogmas. Just a thought, I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my intention.

God Bless!

[Once4all]

I forget who said this, b/c I just skimed over this topic, but whoever said you 'hated the doctrines, not the Catholic church.' Is it possible that you hate the doctrines because you don't understand them? Bishop Fulton J sheen said 'not one hundred ppl in the USA hate the Catholic church, but millions hate what they falsley beleive to be the caholic church.' I think the same could be said for the doctrines and dogmas. Just a thought, I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my intention.

I think that was probably me. I wrote something similar, but not quite what you said. I haven't gone back to check my post, but I think I said something like "Christians don't hate Catholics, but they do feel strongly against many doctrines of the Catholic church."

If Catholic Church doctrines cannot be substantiated from Scripture, they are man-made and not of God. Plain and simple. It seems the RCC equates "the Pope said" with "God said," and that right there is idolatry.

I don't mean to be disrespectful... Just hoping that God would open some eyes.

In Him,
Once4all

[jakelo]

I was only going to read these posts but I couldn't help but replying. I am Catholic. And from what I've learned from other denominations and other religions, there is no doubt in my mind that Catholic is infact Christian. Yes some Catholics do praise the virgin mary and the saints, but like others have said, most don't. I don't. I see the significance of the virgin birth and I also see the great works done by the saints, but in no way do I worship them. Nor pray to them. Personally, I only pray to God. I don't ask for the saints to pray for me, I'd rather have the Lord giving me a helping hand personally. But there are many people out there that do not understand the Catholic Church. Which leads to discussions like this. In response to "It seems the RCC equates "the Pope said" with "God said," and that right there is idolatry." That could be no farther from the truth. Besides, the Pope will always spread God's Word. Not try to change it. I have never heard a single Catholic say, "The Pope says this, so it must be right." Nor have I heard a Catholic say,"I trust the Popes word as much as God's." True Catholics are all about the Lord. Same with all other true Christians.

[Kurieuo]

Jakelo makes a good point I think. In my experience Catholics come in many varieties. Some may praise Mary to the point to worship, while others do not. Additionally, some may not really understand the meaning behind the religious rituals and traditions within the RCC, and so they just see religion. Yet, this is my grievence not only with the Catholic Church, but also with many Protestant churches. Sure Protestants don't have many of the same dogmas and rituals, but each denomination do have their own traditions and beliefs. Within each you have a wide array of Christians who just go along with the religion without any true understanding of the essentials to their faith.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

But where would all us Christians be without the Catholic Church?
(Americans excepted)

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

My main problem with the Catholic church might be its history-the corruption of the papacy...and the selling of indulgences and such. I don't hate Catholicism, of course. I just think once it got too much power...power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That, and the idea that the sacraments help you get to heaven, and the idea that there are levels of sin....and the arrogant belief that you can lose your salvation unless you confess/get the last rights....it says that Jesus doesn't save you, your actions do...and if I miss the mark, correct me, because some of my info comes right from catholics, and other from second hand sources.

[jakelo]

AttentionKMartShoppers Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:15 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My main problem with the Catholic church might be its history-the corruption of the papacy...and the selling of indulgences and such. I don't hate Catholicism, of course. I just think once it got too much power...power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That, and the idea that the sacraments help you get to heaven, and the idea that there are levels of sin....and the arrogant belief that you can lose your salvation unless you confess/get the last rights....it says that Jesus doesn't save you, your actions do...and if I miss the mark, correct me, because some of my info comes right from catholics, and other from second hand sources.

Yes I have heard about Catholics believing that certain sacraments do get you into heaven. But I personnally dont believe in that. I believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. I also don't believe that you could lose your salvation if you don't get your last rights. I haven't heard that preached about during mass. But Catholics do believe that Jesus is the way to salvation, not works. I agree with you when you say you dont like the history of the Catholic church, I'm not proud of it either. But I don't allow history like that affect my faith today. As far as levels of sin, I would think that not believing in God is a lot worse than stealing a car, wouldn't you? We could go on forever with these kinds of things. But the bottom line is, Catholics believe the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Not through works. Besides, I have heard from Baptists that they believe the better you are in life, the more jewels you will have to lay at Jesus' feet when you enter heaven. That came directly from a Baptist. Like I said, we can go on forever about those kinds of things. It all comes down to your faith in the Lord and accepting Him as your Savior, as I'm sure you already know. And Catholics do that everyday.

[kateliz]

I don't believe in "religious correctness". The Bible is the basis for our knowledge and understanding of God and His ways, (for now,) and I believe things are more straight-forward on this topic then my fellow non-Catholics on this board seem to believe. Did anyone read my post on how rituals distract from God? I know it was a weak argument, but I made a valid point, and no one has responded to that. Please consider it, and on a deeper level than initial reaction. My source here is not anti-Catholic in the sense that Mastermind meant. I already explained the position of the author and the Catholic sources he works with in the book. I haven't been on this site for a few days, (since Sunday?) but I tell you that this thread has been on my mind constantly, either in the forefront or just behind it, the whole time. I have spent a good chunk of my free time reading more of the book and reflecting on what everything could possibly mean or what could possibly be true. In reading quotes from Catholic documents it struck me that they had a lot biblical truths that a lot of other Christians seem to be ignorant of. However, there was a lot more legalism than I had ever known of. So far I've read on infant justification and the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, (RCIA,) different graces and all that and how the RCC believes they all work together. I found a few paragraphs I would like to post here:

According to the Bible, justification is not earned; it is a gift. God justifies believers "as a gift by His grace" (Romans 3:24). If God does something by grace, then "it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longe grace" (Romans 11:6). That is why God does not ask sinners to work for justification but to believe. He justifies "the one who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 3:26). The Roman Catholic Church, on the other hand, maintains that justification by faith without works is heresy:

"If anyone says that the faith which justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ; or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema." -Council of Trent

Faith alone, says the Church, is insufficient grounds for justification:

"If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning thereby that no other cooperation is required for him to obtain the grace of justification, and that in no sense is it necessary for him to make preparation and be disposed by a movement of his own will: let him be anathema." -Council of Trent

Aware that Paul repeatedly lists faith as the only required response for justification (Romans 3:26; 3:28; 4:3; 5:1), the Church realizes that its condemnation of justification by faith as a gift demands some further explanation:

"When the Apostle says that a person is justified by faith and as a gift, those words are to be understood in the sense which the perennial consent of the catholic church has maintianed and expressed, namely, that we are said to be justified by faith because faith is the first stage of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and come to the fellowship of his children." -Council of Trent

However, there is nothing in Paul's writings (or anywhere else in the New Testament, for that matter) which teaches that faith is merely the "first stage" leading to salvation, and good works the second stage, it ignores the fact that the Scriptures emphatically state that good works have no part in justification:

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." -Romans 4:5

According to the Bible, the only requirement for justification is faith. The Church strongly disagrees and points to the Letter of James as its proof.

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." -James 2:24

Standing by itself, James 2:24 might seem to support the Roman Catholic Church's claim that both faith and good works must precede adult justification. When the verse is interpreted in it's context, however, this support vanishes.

James is writing not to a group of catechumens [what the RCC calls those seeking justification throught the RCC, before they complete the requirements for baptism, which they say is when you are first justified], but to people already professing to be Christians. But he suspects that some of those who will receive his letter are in fact deceiving themselves. They are living lives of hypocrisy, claiming to be Christians but never having truly experienced the new birth. Hoping that these people will reevaluate their lives, James challenges his readers to moral and consistent living. James 2:24 is an integral part of a discussion composed of 13 verses (James 2:14-26). The passage opens with two questions that raise a point which James wants his readers to consider: "What use it it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, if someone
says he has faith, but his life does not show it by good works, does that person indeed have genuine faith? Is he truly saved? In the verses that follow, James shows that true faith manifests itself by good deeds. A faith that is only talk is "dead" (James 2:17) and "useless" (James 2:20). James uses Abraham as an example to illustrate that if a person has real faith it will be manifested by good works. To help the reader see this point, James raises another question: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21). James answers in the affirmative. As recorded in Genesis 22, when Abraham raised his knife to slay his son in obedience to God, his actions declared him to be a righteous man of real and living faith. It is in this context that James concludes: "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). It is important to note that this verse is not explaining how Abraham was justified by God. The chrongology of Abraham's life makes this point clear. As recorded in Genesis 15:6). This was the basis of God's justification of Abraham. The Lord, in response to Abraham's faith, credited righteousness to Abraham's account. God declared Abraham to be righteous in His sight simply because he believed. No good works were involved. Paul confirms this point:

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." -Romans 4:2,3

More than 20 years later God put Abraham's faith to the test, commanding him to offer up his son Isaac on Mount Moriah. As recorded in Genesis 22, Abraham obeyed God. He passed the test by demonstrating that he was a man who feared God and would obey Him withouth limitations (Genesis 22:12,18). As a result, God swore to greatly bless Abraham and multiply his seed (Genesis 22:16-18). Note that in Genesis 22 God did not justify Abraham; He blessed him: "I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed..." (Genesis 22:17). There was no need for God to justify Abraham, to reckon righteousness to his account, for He had already done so years earlier (Genesis 15:6). In James 2:24 James is referring to the second event in Abraham's life. He is not talking about how Abraham was justified by God unto eternal salvation, but how Abraham was justified, declared righteous, before God and men. His goal is to help his Christian readers evaluate their lives. James wants his readers to understand that if they are going to claim to have faith even as Abraham, then their works of obedience should demonstrate it even as Abraham's obedience demonstrated his faith. It is a man's actions that declare him to be righteous, not mere talk or a professed faith that is not lived out. Despite Roman Catholic claims, James 2:14-26 is not talking about how to prepare one's soul for baptismal justification. The subject is the kind of faith that saves (James 2:14). The passage is talking about living faith as opposed to dead faith (James 2:17). It is about a faith which is evidenced by good works. James' challenge is: "Show me your faith" (James 2:18) even as Abraham showed his. The good news of Jesus Christ is that God receives sinners just as they are. He "justifies the ungodly" (Romans 4:5). That is good news, for until a person is born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he cannot be anything other than what he is: an ungodly sinner in both nature and practice. For this reason, God does not require sinners to reform their lives before He will justify them. Instead, God calls sinners to repentance (Acts 17:30). Repentence is a response to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11). It is a change of heart and mind affecting an individual's view of both God and himself (Acts 26:20; 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10). The person stops making excuses for his evil conduct. He takes sides against himself and acknowledges his guilt before God. He tells God that he is sorry for his rebellion and that he is willing to submit to the Lord's rightful authority over his life. Reformation is something else again. To reform means to change into a new and improved form or condition. The Bible never tells sinners that they must reform their lives before God will justify them. Here again the Roman Catholic approach to adult justification terribly misleads people. It tells sinners seeking God that before they can be justified, they must undergo a moral transformation. They must learn "...to practice love of neighbor, even at the cost of self-renunciation" and give "evidence of their conversion by the example of their lives." To be counted among the elect, they must demonstrate that they are "fit to take part," and "worthy to be admitted," and that they have "begun to walk in God's presence." Only then, according to the Church, are these seekers properly disposed for justification. The Church also leads astray those who are seeking justification by pointing them to a program rather than directly to Christ. The Church teaches people that the R.C.I.A. can bring about "their formation in the entire Christian life" and initiate them into "the practice of an evangelical way of life". The Church teaches that "by means of sacred rites celebrated at successive times" these seekers can come into "the life of faith, worship, and charity belonging to the people of God". All of this is completely unbiblical. There is no rite or program on earth that can make a person worthy to be counted among the elect. The unregenerated person is a slave to sin (Romans 6:6). He cannot begin to walk in God's presence until Christ comes into his life and makes him a new person (Romans 8:5-11). By the time a person completes the R.C.I.A. and is baptized, he or she if fully indoctrinated into a lifestyle of approaching God based upon good works and personal rigtheousness. This is the same deception that kept the Jews of the first century from coming to Christ for salvation:

"For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." -Romans 10:3

Christ told the Pharisees, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners" (Matthew 9:13). He taught that God is willing to justify only those who first recognize that they are unworthy sinners (Luke 18:9-14). Consequently, participation in the R.C.I.A. is actually detrimental to a person seeking justification. Rather than leading lost sinners to God, it leads them away.

• Hebrews 10:1-18: 1 For the Law, since it has only a R382 shadow of the R383 good things to come and not the very form F101 of things, can F102 never, R384 by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make R385 perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness R386 of sins? 3 But in R387 those F103 sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible R388 for the blood R389 of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when R390 He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE R391 AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A R392 BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; 6 IN R393 WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
  
  7 "THEN R394 I SAID, `BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE R395 SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' " 8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES R396 AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE R397 BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR R398 SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, F104 "BEHOLD R399 , I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this F105 will we have been sanctified R400 through the R401 offering of the R402 body of Jesus Christ once R403 for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering R404 time after time the same sacrifices, which can R405 never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for R406 sins F106 for R407 all time, SAT R408 DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL R409 HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected R410 for R411 all time those who are sanctified. F107 15 And the R412 Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 "THIS R413 IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, 17 "AND R414 THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

[Mastermind]

This is ridiculous. You read anti-catholic books and draw your info about the church from that. How about you read a book that explains catholicism? YOu know, get it from the source instead of people with an agenda against it?

[Felgar]

I just want to say that I'm Catholic, and I have a relationship with Christ that is evergrowing. All the 'rituals' deepen that relationship for me.

I believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. I also don't believe that you could lose your salvation if you don't get your last rights.

...

But Catholics do believe that Jesus is the way to salvation, not works.

...

It all comes down to your faith in the Lord and accepting Him as your Savior, as I'm sure you already know. And Catholics do that everyday.

I remember that Alanna had a better quote than that, but I couldn't find it.

Basically I just wanted to point out that none of us here are in a position to question jakelo and Alanna's faith and salvation, given that the statements above are true. They are perfect examples of Catholics who are saved and we should be respectful of that. I just wanted to point this out, because we've had a good number of Catholic vs. Protestant debates here, and they've gotten fairly heated at times.

And as much as I do agree that we should debate these things, we should be sensitive to the fact that we are attacking the faith of a fellow believer of Christ. And to an extent, we have a responsibility to not cause them to stumble:

1 Corinthians 1:31-32
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

So if we're not to cause even Jews to stumble, how much more should we be careful to not attack the faith of someone who we all must accept is saved?

Now, having said that, I feel that these discussions are great for the purpose of understanding what the Bible says about our faith and what various denominations say. These discussions underline the importance of faith and also serve to highlight potentially misleading traditions within some churches. Jackelo posted a good example:

Yes I have heard about Catholics believing that certain sacraments do get you into heaven. But I personnally dont believe in that ... I also don't believe that you could lose your salvation if you don't get your last rights.

So through such discussions we may very well strengthen the faith of our Catholic believers so that they may then share the truth that Jesus saves with their own Catholic brethren who may have been led astray or never really understood the message of the Gospel in the first place.