Evidence for God from Science

Hugh Ross' / Reasons to Believe's fellow scientist and team member biochemist Fazale Rana weighs in on the safety, emergency approval, and history of development behind the first distributions of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines:

https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/the-c ... providence

Some interesting outtakes from the article:

Even though the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines represent the first-ever mRNA vaccines used on humans, they took nearly three decades to develop thanks to the tireless efforts of life scientists and biomedical researchers. This developmental history includes numerous studies in which their safety has been assessed, leading to significant improvements in vaccine design, ensuring that any adverse reaction to mRNA vaccines is negligible.

This concerted effort has paid off. And, in large measure, these previous studies have made it possible for the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna scientists to rapidly develop their COVID-19 vaccines. At the point when the COVID-19 outbreak was declared a pandemic, researchers had already developed mRNA vaccines for a number of viral pathogens and tested them in animal models. They had even progressed some of these vaccines into small-scale human clinical studies that included safety assessments. Bioengineers had already started work on pilot scale production of mRNA vaccines, along the way developing GMPs (Good Manufacturing Practices) for the manufacture of mRNA vaccines.2

In effect, when the pandemic broke, all the researchers at Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna had to do to develop their COVID-19 vaccines was to know the right sequence to use for the vaccine’s mRNA. In other words, the scientific and biomedical communities just happened to be poised and ready to go with mRNA vaccines when the first outbreaks of COVID-19 appeared around the world.

Advantages of mRNA Vaccines

Some of the advantages of mRNA vaccines include:

Safety. Vaccines using mRNA are inherently safer than vaccines made up of inactivated or attenuated viruses. These latter types of vaccines can cause infections in the patients if the viral particles are not adequately inactivated or if they are not completely attenuated. Also, because the production of these vaccines involves handling live viruses, the risk to the workers is real, potentially leading to an outbreak of the disease at research and production facilities.

Compared to DNA vaccines (which are being pursued as a potential future generation vaccine type), mRNA vaccines have virtually no risk of modifying the patient’s genome—in part because mRNA will degrade once it has been translated, never making its way to the cell nucleus.

From the article:

As a Christian, I see a divine hand in the rapid development of the COVID-19 vaccines, reflecting God’s providential care for humanity.

I wonder if he sees God’s hand in the vaccines that were developed using aborted fetus cells.

Rick: I wonder if he sees God’s hand in the vaccines that were developed using aborted fetus cells.

What has that got to do with the ONLY vaccines he addresses, Rick? Not a thing!

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Philip wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:57 pm

Rick: I wonder if he sees God’s hand in the vaccines that were developed using aborted fetus cells.

What has that got to do with the ONLY vaccines he addresses, Rick? Not a thing!

Maybe nothing. But, maybe something, according to this:
https://andrewtwalker.com/2020/11/fetal ... 9-vaccine/

From the article:

It is technically accurate that the vaccines in focus here were not developed using fetal cells, but it appears that confirmatory tests to determine the effectiveness of the vaccine did in fact use fetal cells.

If you can live with the choice, that’s up to you. I’d just rather let people know, and make their own decision. For me, if I know a vaccine was even tested with aborted fetus cells, I’d have to try really hard to be able to justify taking that vaccine.

Again, each person is going to have to weigh the pros and cons of any vaccine.

Also from Rick's link: "Now, the issue is even more complicated by the fact that it is not absolutely clear that HEK-293 cells were in fact developed from a child that had been aborted. New evidence has entered into the equation that questions the certainty that abortion was behind the HEK-293 cell line."

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:58 pm Also from Rick's link: "Now, the issue is even more complicated by the fact that it is not absolutely clear that HEK-293 cells were in fact developed from a child that had been aborted. New evidence has entered into the equation that questions the certainty that abortion was behind the HEK-293 cell line."

Absolutely! Anyone who is questioning whether or not to get the vaccine has to do his own research. Decide what you believe is credible.

Since I decided for other reasons, not to get the vaccine, whether or not aborted fetus tissue played any part in development or testing of these vaccines isn’t really relevant to me. But for those on the fence, do research.

All I know is that if I were on the fence with this issue, if I thought there were any possible connection to aborted fetus cells being used, I’d err on the side of staying away from the vaccine. Personally, I feel so strongly about abortion, that I couldn’t, in good conscience, take the vaccine.

But as I stated before, someone may feel the need for a vaccine outweighs the evidence one finds for use of aborted fetus cells.

Everyone has his/her own conscience. And I’d say to any Christians, pray for God’s guidance.

Here’s a link about HEK-293:
https://www.hek293.com/

I'm curious what DB knows about this?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Rick wrote: All I know is that if I were on the fence with this issue, if I thought there were any possible connection to aborted fetus cells being used, I’d err on the side of staying away from the vaccine. Personally, I feel so strongly about abortion, that I couldn’t, in good conscience, take the vaccine.

I'm curious what DB knows about this?

I think there are two separate issues here...

1. Should person use any medical treatment or product that used fetal cells in either the development or testing?
Or a related question...
Should a person accept any medical treatment that involves the use of body parts from a murder victim?
Whatever choice a person makes, I would expect consistency across the board. Instead of picking and choosing which medical procedures to oppose based on the 'fetal cell' criteria.

2. That said, to the best of my knowledge, fetal cells have nothing to do with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, so the 'fetal cell' criteria is not even relevant to the Covid-19 vaccine question.

I am unapologetically pro-life.
And as a pro-life Christian I unapologetically and enthusiastically support the use of Covid-19 vaccines in order to stop this pandemic and save millions of human lives.

Thats my .02...

DBowling wrote:
2. That said, to the best of my knowledge, fetal cells have nothing to do with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, so the 'fetal cell' criteria is not even relevant to the Covid-19 vaccine question.

I thought the same thing, until I found information that I hadn’t seen before. That’s why I posted the link a few posts back that showed that both the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines used HEK293.

So, now that you know, you can make a more informed decision about the vaccine.

DBowling wrote:
1. Should person use any medical treatment or product that used fetal cells in either the development or testing?
Or a related question...
Should a person accept any medical treatment that involves the use of body parts from a murder victim?
Whatever choice a person makes, I would expect consistency across the board. Instead of picking and choosing which medical procedures to oppose based on the 'fetal cell' criteria.

I’d agree if we had a history of people being murdered to harvest their body parts. And as we know, Planned Parenthood was caught talking about the big money involved in harvesting body parts of aborted fetuses.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:17 am

DBowling wrote:
2. That said, to the best of my knowledge, fetal cells have nothing to do with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, so the 'fetal cell' criteria is not even relevant to the Covid-19 vaccine question.

I thought the same thing, until I found information that I hadn’t seen before. That’s why I posted the link a few posts back that showed that both the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines used HEK293.

So, now that you know, you can make a more informed decision about the vaccine.

Here's some more information...
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-a ... etal-cells

Some key points...
- the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells.
- Pfizer and Moderna did perform confirmation tests (to ensure the vaccines work) using fetal cell lines.
- Fetal cell lines are not the same as fetal tissue. Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory.
- All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 elective abortion that took place in the Netherlands.
- None of the COVID-19 vaccines in development use fetal cells taken from recent abortions.

So, no fetal cell lines were used to manufacture the vaccine, and they are not inside the injection you receive from your doctor.

From this link:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ne ... cell-lines

Cell lines are cultures of animal cells that can be propagated repeatedly and sometimes indefinitely. They arise from primary cell cultures. Primary cultures are initiated directly from the cells, tissues, or organs of animals and are typically used in experiments within a few days.

While I don’t disagree with your post, I wonder why you chose to underline the part you underlined. The Cell lines used in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were derived from cells, tissues, or organs from an aborted fetus. It seems like you’re trying to make it sound less horrible in your explanation.

THE FACT REMAINS THAT PFIZER AND MODERNA USED CELL LINES DERIVED FROM AN ABORTED FETUS! I honestly can’t understand how anyone who considers himself “unapologetically pro life” wouldn’t be disgusted by that fact, nevermind have no qualms whatsoever about taking that vaccine.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:38 pm THE FACT REMAINS THAT PFIZER AND MODERNA USED CELL LINES DERIVED FROM AN ABORTED FETUS!

The fact remains that the the PfIzer and Moderna contain NO fetal tissue or even fetal cell lines.

I honestly can’t understand how anyone who considers himself “unapologetically pro life” wouldn’t be disgusted by that fact, nevermind have no qualms whatsoever about taking that vaccine.

I am disgusted by the murder of any human being!
And I am also disgusted by the needless and preventable deaths of hundreds of thousands and even millions of human beings!

Again... would you oppose using organs from a murder victim to save the life of a SINGLE HUMAN BEING... much less MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS?
As a health care worker do you refuse to use or administer any medication that used fetal cell lines at any point in the testing of the medication?

I honestly can't understand why a person who CLAIMS to be pro-life is constantly attacking vaccines that will SAVE MILLIONS OF HUMAN LIVES!!!!!!!!!

The fact remains that the the PfIzer and Moderna contain NO fetal tissue or even fetal cell lines.

Vaccines don’t “contain” fetal cell lines. The fetal cell lines are used in the process of testing the vaccine. Nobody here is making a claim that these vaccines contain fetal tissue or cell lines.

Again... would you oppose using organs from a murder victim to save the life of a SINGLE HUMAN BEING... much less MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS?

Yes, when the murder victim is an unborn human.

As a health care worker do you refuse to use or administer any medication that used fetal cell lines at any point in the testing of the medication?

Dude,
I’m a maintenance mechanic. You really don’t want me administering medication.
When I learn new info about medication or vaccines that use fetal cell lines, then no, I won’t use them. I’ve taken flu vaccines in the past, not knowing if they used fetal cell lines.

I honestly can't understand why a person who CLAIMS to be pro-life is constantly attacking vaccines that will SAVE MILLIONS OF HUMAN LIVES!!!!!!!!!

Where am I constantly attacking vaccines? My main claim is that I’m not getting these vaccines because there’s no long term safety data on them. How is that attacking vaccines?

Would you like it better if I attack fat, unhealthy people, if it’ll save their lives?

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:08 pm

The fact remains that the the PfIzer and Moderna contain NO fetal tissue or even fetal cell lines.

Vaccines don’t “contain” fetal cell lines. The fetal cell lines are used in the process of testing the vaccine. Nobody here is making a claim that these vaccines contain fetal tissue or cell lines.

Again... would you oppose using organs from a murder victim to save the life of a SINGLE HUMAN BEING... much less MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS?

Yes, when the murder victim is an unborn human.

How about if the murder victim is a born human?

I honestly can't understand why a person who CLAIMS to be pro-life is constantly attacking vaccines that will SAVE MILLIONS OF HUMAN LIVES!!!!!!!!!

Where am I constantly attacking vaccines? My main claim is that I’m not getting these vaccines because there’s no long term safety data on them. How is that attacking vaccines?

Because the data that we do have from the Covid-19 vaccine trials and millions of vaccinations in the field indicates that the Covid-19 vaccines are both safe and effective.

Would you like it better if I attack fat, unhealthy people, if it’ll save their lives?

As a pro-life Christian I would prefer if you would resist the urge to attack the effort to save millions of human live from Covid-19.

A pro-life person would encourage anyone to lead a more healthy life style... to save human lives.
A pro-life person would encourage the use of safe and effective vaccines... to save human lives.
A pro-life person would encourage and enable bringing unwanted pregnancies to full term... to save human lives.

Pro-life means PRO-LIFE... that means all human life, unborn AND born.

DBowling wrote:
How about if the murder victim is a born human?

It would depend on the situation. If there were a known industry that profits off the murder of born humans, like we know the abortion industry profits off the murder of unborn humans, then yes, I’d have an issue with it.

Because the data that we do have from the Covid-19 vaccine trials and millions of vaccinations in the field indicates that the Covid-19 vaccines are both safe and effective.

No! If you choose to believe the data we do have, THERE IS STILL NO LONG TERM SAFETY DATA. Since we don’t know the long term safety of the vaccines, there is no way you can honestly say that the vaccines are safe. At best, you can take the short term safety data, and if you believe the vaccine is safe in short term, then you can hope that somehow correlates to long term.

As a pro-life Christian I would prefer if you would resist the urge to attack the effort to save millions of human live from Covid-19.

Sorry dude. I call them as I see them. I criticize things that I think are wrong. Do I hope that these vaccines eventually prove to be safe long term? Absolutely!

A pro-life person would encourage anyone to lead a more healthy life style... to save human lives.
A pro-life person would encourage the use of safe and effective vaccines... to save human lives.
A pro-life person would encourage and enable bringing unwanted pregnancies to full term... to save human lives.

And an honest person would stop claiming vaccines are safe and effective, when we just don’t know that they’re safe and effective, because WE HAVE NO LONG TERM SAFETY DATA!