Morality

[Mallz]

Thanks for the comment, Mallz. However I have to repeat what I just wrote to Philip: " I am very sorrow, I missed a "no". I intended to write: "I have no objection to your definition of Christians, that they have to be truly committed".". I am not sure that my mistake really will affect your answer but after rereading it I think it does. My mistake made you think that I have opinions on who should be called a Christian and who should not. I certainly don't have any opinion on that, especially if we are talking about "true Christians" as Philip does. It should be an internal question for the Christians. If we go to demographics it will be different, there citizens' own description should count.
Nils

Gotcha. The only thing I would clarify from here, though, is that it certainly is not an internal question. Is it an internal question to know who is a republican or democrat? I used a fairly extreme example by saying I'm a different race and gender but the analogy still applies. A hypocrite is exactly what it is. And the thing I really can't stand (find to be arrogant and intellectually dishonest and lazy) is someone holding a hypocrite to be what they claim to be. Everyone hates a hypocrite, yeah? So don't empower them, fool yourself, or charge any sort of ideology/religion/whatever by hypocrites which is a very common thing to do. There is no 'true Christian' vs Christian. There is only Christian vs not Christian. Like how there is only republican or not, democrat or not, Muslim or not, etc ad naseum. Demographics don't mean anything in regard to who follows a religion or ideology, and who is a hypocrite.

[Kenny]

You do realize that it is a logical inconsistency to say that good is subjective BUT to disagree that "good" exist?

No; here is how it works: Good is subjective, means everybody has their own personal view of what is good, that varies a little from person to person. The vast majority of issues everybody will agree on, but there will be a small percentage of items that people will disagree on.
As far as “good” only existing in the make-believe world, that is because everybody brings their own personal view of “good” to the table, because those thoughts only exist in our heads.

If you agree that good exists ( and you must for obvious reasons) then you agree that the comment, "there is such a thing as good", is valid, correct?

“Good” does not exist in the physical world, it only exists mentally.

This is probably one of the funniest post I have read in a bit !
Ken starts off by disagreeing that good exist and then goes about defining why it, that which does not exist, is subjective !

Yes it does not exist outside of human thought. Our thoughts are subjective. Why do you find this funny?

Any yet no justification for the universal view that sexually assaulting an infant is wrong.

Just because both you and I agree what YOU define as sexual assault of an infant is wrong, doesn’t make this view universal. How do you know your definition of sexual assault of an infant is seen as wrong by all? Remember what we in the West called “female mutilation” many in Kenya and Nigeria called it “female circumcision”, and saw it as a good thing.
If a person considered your definition of sexual assault of an infant as good, how would you prove him wrong? You proclaim him wrong, and he proclaims you wrong; how can you prove your view trumps his?

[Kurieuo]

Kenny, not everyone agrees the Earth is round - does that mean the truth of such is subjective?

[Kenny]

Kenny, not everyone agrees the Earth is round - does that mean the truth of such is subjective?

There are "facts" and then there are "beliefs". Facts are objective; beliefs are subjective. Morality is not based on facts, it's based on belief.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny, not everyone agrees the Earth is round - does that mean the truth of such is subjective?

There are "facts" and then there are "beliefs". Facts are objective; beliefs are subjective. Morality is not based on facts, it's based on belief.

Ken

Is that your opinion based on your belief?

[PaulSacramento]

Ken,
That you are debating the subjectivity of something that you claim, doesn't exist, is what I find funny.
For someone that says that good is a figment of ones imagination ( paraphrasing) and that is why this imaginary thing is subjective, you certainly have a very clear view about what is good and bad.
Good imagination I guess?

You should be thankful that MOST people do NOT have such a fluid notion of right and wrong because if they did...well..

Oh wait, never mind since what Pol Pot did was not really wrong, simply wrong for those that believe genocide is wrong.

[Kenny]

Kenny, not everyone agrees the Earth is round - does that mean the truth of such is subjective?

There are "facts" and then there are "beliefs". Facts are objective; beliefs are subjective. Morality is not based on facts, it's based on belief.

Ken

Is that your opinion based on your belief?

Some of what I said may have been based on my subjective beliefs, and some of what I said was based on objective facts.

[PaulSacramento]

Ken, you do believe in objective facts?
Just not when it relates to morals?
Correct?
Why?

[Kenny]

Ken,
That you are debating the subjectivity of something that you claim, doesn't exist, is what I find funny.

Thoughts don’t have an actual/physical existence. Thoughts are subjective.

For someone that says that good is a figment of ones imagination ( paraphrasing) and that is why this imaginary thing is subjective, you certainly have a very clear view about what is good and bad.
Good imagination I guess?

No better than anybody elses.

You should be thankful that MOST people do NOT have such a fluid notion of right and wrong because if they did...well..

Actually most people do.

Oh wait, never mind since what Pol Pot did was not really wrong, simply wrong for those that believe genocide is wrong.

How are you defining the difference between what is really wrong vs wrong for those who believe “X” is wrong? And how do you tell the difference?

[PaulSacramento]

lol !
really wrong VS wrong !

Classic.
I am not defining the difference Ken, YOU ARE.
You are the one claiming subjectivity.

[Kurieuo]

Kenny, not everyone agrees the Earth is round - does that mean the truth of such is subjective?

There are "facts" and then there are "beliefs". Facts are objective; beliefs are subjective. Morality is not based on facts, it's based on belief.

Ken

Facts are beliefs we hold to be immovable truths, are they not? Yet, sometimes we might be wrong in what is declared as fact. For example, it was once considered a fact the world was flat, that the Sun moved around Earth. Who knows, we might actually end up being wrong in what we deem to be facts today as our understanding of the quantum world grows.

It is a fact that goodness exists, that beauty exists, and the like, even if we disagree on the details of such. Similarly we can confidently assert that the Sun and Earth exist despite having different beliefs about geocentricity, whether Earth is flat or round, and so on.

So we know morality, just like this place we live on which we call Earth, to be true, even if details are disagreed upon or we use different names for things, misunderstand or fail to grasp this and that truth, etc.

Edit: fixed *dumb*phone errors.

[Kenny]

lol !
really wrong VS wrong !

Classic.
I am not defining the difference Ken, YOU ARE.
You are the one claiming subjectivity.

My view is they are the same; both subjective judgments we make about human actions we experience.

[Kenny]

[

Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K

...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/

Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...
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[B. W.]

Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K

...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/

Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...-

Just think if there is no morality, then I did nothing wrong

Anyway sorry about that anyways...
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[Kenny]

[

Whoops sorry Ken... I accidentally selected the Edited button instead of selecting the Quote button and erased your response to K

...If Sin is transgression against the law of God, unless the existence of God can be proven, the existence of sin cannot be either.... Earth has a physical existence thus can be proven; morality does not, thus cannot...

The existence of sin cannot be proved

Are you serious???

Ted Bundy, Adolph Coors III, and Harris and Klebold-Columbine ....

So are these folks are saints and innocent?

https://list25.com/25-most-evil-serial- ... h-century/

Sounds like you are confusing "Evil" with "Sin". You do know the difference do you?

Top one from above link quoted below -- Pedro Alonso Lopez

Pedro Alonso López is a Colombian serial killer, accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America. He lured them to secluded areas or inside unoccupied buildings where he raped each of them before killing them by a range of brutal methods, primarily strangulation. López was arrested when an attempted abduction failed and he was trapped by market traders. He confessed to over 300 murders but the police only believed him when a flash flood uncovered a mass grave containing many of his victims. Eventually 53 bodies were discovered. Imprisoned in 1980 he served 18 years before being released from a Ecuadorian prison and was deported to Columbia where he was rearrested and in 2002 was sentenced to life.25 Of The Most Evil Serial Killers You Have Ever Known - by Juan Castillo, Updated on June 28, 2017

Morality has no physical existence - then please tell that to the victims families...please Ken...
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[/quote]
Are you under the impression morality has a physical existence?

Ken