The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[Kenny]

These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.

Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.

Ken

Who said they had christian convictions that were true to the christian faith? And what makes it obvious that these people worshiped Jesus and loved and trusted Jesus?

I remember reading a book (I can’t remember the title right now) but it was about a liberal man during the 1960’s who went undercover and joined the Ku Klux Klan in an effort to write a book about them and expose them to the world (sorta like Gloria Steinem going undercover as a Playboy bunny then writing about it) In the book, when he took the oath, the oath consisted of a bunch of racist stuff but he also had to profess Christian beliefs. During that time, to be in the Klan, you couldn’t be atheist, Jewish, buddist, Muslim, or anything else; you had to be christian.

How do you know they weren't worshiping, loving and trusting only who they thought was Jesus?

What’s the difference between loving and trusting Jesus and loving and trusting who you believe to be Jesus?

Ken

[Nessa]

Whats the difference between trusting the pilot of a plane and the guy who you thought was the pilot of a plane?

[Kenny]

Whats the difference between trusting the pilot of a plane and the guy who you thought was the pilot of a plane?

The pilot is the guy who actually flies the plane; the guy I though was the pilot was just wearing a similar uniform.

Ken

[Nessa]

Whats the difference between trusting the pilot of a plane and the guy who you thought was the pilot of a plane?

The pilot is the guy who actually flies the plane; the guy I though was the pilot was just wearing a similar uniform.

Ken

do you mind which one flies the plane? what im trying to say is you could put all your trust in the wrong person and have a hijacker fly the plane but you might not care if you didnt know better

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.

Ken

I'm not sure I'm following you Ken. By what standard do you judge someone in the KKK, or anyone else to be evil?

By my standards, and the standards of modern society in the environment of which I live.

Ken

Ok. So let me make sure I've got this right. You're questioning if God should let them into heaven because YOU subjectively think they are evil? Whatever subjective standard you use to measure evil, should be taken into consideration by God, before He decides who should get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

[melanie]

These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.

Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.

Ken

Who said they had christian convictions that were true to the christian faith? And what makes it obvious that these people worshiped Jesus and loved and trusted Jesus?

I remember reading a book (I can’t remember the title right now) but it was about a liberal man during the 1960’s who went undercover and joined the Ku Klux Klan in an effort to write a book about them and expose them to the world (sorta like Gloria Steinem going undercover as a Playboy bunny then writing about it) In the book, when he took the oath, the oath consisted of a bunch of racist stuff but he also had to profess Christian beliefs. During that time, to be in the Klan, you couldn’t be atheist, Jewish, buddist, Muslim, or anything else; you had to be christian.

How do you know they weren't worshiping, loving and trusting only who they thought was Jesus?

What’s the difference between loving and trusting Jesus and loving and trusting who you believe to be Jesus?

Ken

Not just in the 60's Ken. It is the same today. White Supremacist groups have 'christian' overtones. I watched a documentary a month or so ago by Louis Theroux, great documentary film maker about white Supremacist groups. The main guy he was interviewing was a 'pastor' and their meetings were often held in churches. He documented on several groups.
History shows some pretty ugly examples of people using Religion and/or Chirstianty to promote evil, hateful agendas.
The guys in this documentary spoke of race supremacy and hatred in the same breath as Jesus.
Made me pretty mad actually.
I don't think there is any real conviction for Jesus at all. Just conviction for their white supremacy, so much so that they will use and twist Chirstianity as a tool and weapon to promote evil.
Other religions also have people twisting the core message to do pretty much the same thing.
People will manipulate anything, Christianity is not immune to that.
The can have bucket loads of religious conviction, it really doesn't mean anything. Their hearts will expose them. That is what we are judged on, and that is what exposes us either way.

[Kurieuo]

I think Kenny's caught within a subjective nihilistic manner of thought.
That is, "they say", "you say", "we say" but ultimately "who's to really say"?

Well, we now have to go to our sources of information now.
At least as far as Christian beliefs are concerned and what they really are.

This is what Luther did and look what that started?

[Kenny]

Ken wrote:
I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.

Ken

I'm not sure I'm following you Ken. By what standard do you judge someone in the KKK, or anyone else to be evil?

By my standards, and the standards of modern society in the environment of which I live.

Ken

Ok. So let me make sure I've got this right. You're questioning if God should let them into heaven because YOU subjectively think they are evil? Whatever subjective standard you use to measure evil, should be taken into consideration by God, before He decides who should get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

My subjective standard of evil includes Beatings, lynching, torturing, and murdering innocent people. Yes! I am saying these actions should be taken into consideration. Do you agree?


Ken

[Kenny]

Whats the difference between trusting the pilot of a plane and the guy who you thought was the pilot of a plane?

The pilot is the guy who actually flies the plane; the guy I though was the pilot was just wearing a similar uniform.

Ken

do you mind which one flies the plane? what im trying to say is you could put all your trust in the wrong person and have a hijacker fly the plane but you might not care if you didnt know better

So how is it possible to believe you are talking to Jesus, perhaps even calling his name; but to be actually be talking to someone else? Can you provide an example of how this might happen?

Ken

[Kenny]

These people also had deep religious convictions; not just religious convictions but christian convictions. Obviously these people worshipped Jesus, loved Jesus, and trusted, Jesus.

Now that is reality; and if it is your position that these are some of the people you can expect to see in Heaven because they simply “trusted Jesus Christ for salvation” that’s fine! I ain’t tryin’ to take that away from you; but let’s not pretend that once someone “trusts christ for salvation” they will no longer do wrong.

Ken

Who said they had christian convictions that were true to the christian faith? And what makes it obvious that these people worshiped Jesus and loved and trusted Jesus?

I remember reading a book (I can’t remember the title right now) but it was about a liberal man during the 1960’s who went undercover and joined the Ku Klux Klan in an effort to write a book about them and expose them to the world (sorta like Gloria Steinem going undercover as a Playboy bunny then writing about it) In the book, when he took the oath, the oath consisted of a bunch of racist stuff but he also had to profess Christian beliefs. During that time, to be in the Klan, you couldn’t be atheist, Jewish, buddist, Muslim, or anything else; you had to be christian.

How do you know they weren't worshiping, loving and trusting only who they thought was Jesus?

What’s the difference between loving and trusting Jesus and loving and trusting who you believe to be Jesus?

Ken

Not just in the 60's Ken. It is the same today. White Supremacist groups have 'christian' overtones. I watched a documentary a month or so ago by Louis Theroux, great documentary film maker about white Supremacist groups. The main guy he was interviewing was a 'pastor' and their meetings were often held in churches. He documented on several groups.
History shows some pretty ugly examples of people using Religion and/or Chirstianty to promote evil, hateful agendas.
The guys in this documentary spoke of race supremacy and hatred in the same breath as Jesus.
Made me pretty mad actually.
I don't think there is any real conviction for Jesus at all. Just conviction for their white supremacy, so much so that they will use and twist Chirstianity as a tool and weapon to promote evil.
Other religions also have people twisting the core message to do pretty much the same thing.
People will manipulate anything, Christianity is not immune to that.
The can have bucket loads of religious conviction, it really doesn't mean anything. Their hearts will expose them. That is what we are judged on, and that is what exposes us either way.

So you say what matters is what's in your heart?

Ken

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
I made the comment the only times works seem to matter is when they are bad. Good works won’t get cha in, but bad works will keep you out. You replied bad works will not keep you out of heaven, not trusting Christ is what keeps you out. So I asked about the Ku Klux Klan and other evil people getting into heaven if they trust Christ
If this is your interpretation, that’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you of anything otherwise.

Ken

I'm not sure I'm following you Ken. By what standard do you judge someone in the KKK, or anyone else to be evil?

By my standards, and the standards of modern society in the environment of which I live.

Ken

Ok. So let me make sure I've got this right. You're questioning if God should let them into heaven because YOU subjectively think they are evil? Whatever subjective standard you use to measure evil, should be taken into consideration by God, before He decides who should get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?

My subjective standard of evil includes Beatings, lynching, torturing, and murdering innocent people. Yes! I am saying these actions should be taken into consideration. Do you agree?


Ken

No, I don't agree that God should take into consideration, YOUR SUBJECTIVE MORALITY, BASED ON YOUR OPINION!!
And if you can't see how ridiculous this is, then you truly are blind!

[Kenny]

No, I don't agree that God should take into consideration, YOUR SUBJECTIVE MORALITY, BASED ON YOUR OPINION!!
And if you can't see how ridiculous this is, then you truly are blind!

I didn't say God should take all of my subjective moral opinions into considerations; I said he should take the specific behaviors; which are also a part of my subjective moral opinions, into consideration. Being a skeptic and all, I have moral opinions I wouldn't expect any God to take into considerations; but torturing, and murdering innocent people because of their skin color? Yes.

Ken

[Squible]

Kenny,

So you want God to take into consideration murder and torture etc. and not some of your other opinions, to also say they are purely your subjective moral opinions.

Meanwhile failing to see that you are declaring God as the objective moral reality!

Kenny you are seriously blind!

[Kenny]

Kenny,

So you want God to take into consideration murder and torture etc. and not some of your other opinions, to also say they are purely your subjective moral opinions.

Meanwhile failing to see that you are declaring God as the objective moral reality!

Kenny you are seriously blind!

I was speaking hypothetically for the sake of conversation.

Ken

[Squible]

Kenny,

Regardless you still fail to see that you employ an objective moral reality in order for your "consideration" about what's moral to take place.

Interestingly, you are doing this also in your comment where some of your views you wouldn't ask God to consider.

We have had this discussion before so I am not going to go around in circles with you again, Kenny. Your position ultimately contradicts itself time and time again and no matter how many times people have pointed it out you fail to see it.

Go and read CS Lewis - Mere Christianity first few chapters CS Lewis explains the situation quite well.


Squible