Nature of Sheol/Hades

[cheezerrox]

Something that I spend a lot of time wondering about. Most Christians nowadays seem to believe that we are judged to go to heaven or hell at death, but I find this to not be what the Bible says. The problem I think is that in many translations, like the KJV and modern translations that try to be "accessible", they translate Sheol and Hades into hell a lot of the time. But, that's not the case. Sheol and Hades in the Bible are the grave, which is, death. The first death, which is physical death. It's described in the Bible more in the OT than the NT, with Jacob saying that he would go down to Sheol in sorrow (Genesis 37:35). I don't believe many would take this as him saying he was going to hell. Also, it says Jesus went down to Sheol/Hades during the three days before he was risen (Acts 2:31). Surely God himself didn't go to hell.

Then, the dead in Sheol are described as "not know(ing) anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Notice throughout Ecclesiastes that it is repeated that the righteous and the wicked share the same fate, death, which is the grave (Ecclesiaste 9:2). Sheol is also described as not having "activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom... where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10). Throughout both the OT and the NT, the resurrection is when the dead shall be judged, not at death.

But, the NT confuses me on this issue. For example, when Jesus is crucified, he tells the thief who accepted him "'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Then, Paul recounts being caught up into Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:3-4). I don't know what to make of this.

Any oppinions?

[neo-x]

I don't remember the reference, (or may be I am wrong about this) But I think some people die and they enter into the kingdom of god through Christ. some await judgement. I do not know what is the criteria for such a difference but I guess it is the God's will, whom he chooses. Others may be able to shed some more light on the topic. I think Paul's temporary ascension may not be a suitable example in this context, since we are talking about the dead and not the living.

[RickD]

Welcome to the site, cheezerrox. That's a good question, that is touched upon in an article on the home site, here:http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/false.html
Look it over, and see if it's what you're looking for. The part that addresses your question, is about 1/4 way down the page. It's talked about in "Hell is under the earth".

[Silvertusk]

Something that I spend a lot of time wondering about. Most Christians nowadays seem to believe that we are judged to go to heaven or hell at death, but I find this to not be what the Bible says. The problem I think is that in many translations, like the KJV and modern translations that try to be "accessible", they translate Sheol and Hades into hell a lot of the time. But, that's not the case. Sheol and Hades in the Bible are the grave, which is, death. The first death, which is physical death. It's described in the Bible more in the OT than the NT, with Jacob saying that he would go down to Sheol in sorrow (Genesis 37:35). I don't believe many would take this as him saying he was going to hell. Also, it says Jesus went down to Sheol/Hades during the three days before he was risen (Acts 2:31). Surely God himself didn't go to hell.

Then, the dead in Sheol are described as "not know(ing) anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Notice throughout Ecclesiastes that it is repeated that the righteous and the wicked share the same fate, death, which is the grave (Ecclesiaste 9:2). Sheol is also described as not having "activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom... where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10). Throughout both the OT and the NT, the resurrection is when the dead shall be judged, not at death.

But, the NT confuses me on this issue. For example, when Jesus is crucified, he tells the thief who accepted him "'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Then, Paul recounts being caught up into Paradise (2 Corinthians 3-4). I don't know what to make of this.

Any oppinions?

I guess it depends where you put the comma- for instance -

"'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" or
"'Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"

I think there are different interpretations of that line with the comma in a different place. Move the comma and you have a whole different meaning.

Silvertusk.

[Byblos]

I guess it depends where you put the comma- for instance -

"'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" or
"'Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"

I think there are different interpretations of that line with the comma in a different place. Move the comma and you have a whole different meaning.

Silvertusk.

IMO the second interpretation with the comma after 'today' doesn't make sense for several reasons:

1. it makes the word 'today' redundant: 'I say to you today' ? as opposed to what, 'I say to you yesterday' or 'I say to you tomorrow' ?
2. In every other instance where Jesus says 'Truly I say to you ...' it is is always immediately followed by whatever truth Jesus wishes to convey, never followed by a connecting word such as 'today' that is meant to be understood as part of the 'I truly say to you ...'.
3. Reading the sentence without the comma (as it was actually written): 'Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise' is more naturally understood with a comma before 'today', not after.

[cheezerrox]

Welcome to the site, cheezerrox. That's a good question, that is touched upon in an article on the home site, here:http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/false.html
Look it over, and see if it's what you're looking for. The part that addresses your question, is about 1/4 way down the page. It's talked about in "Hell is under the earth".

Thanks for the welcome. I've been familiar with the site for a while, but just recently found the forum.
I checked the article, and it doesn't really address what I meant. What I'm talking about is that since Hades/Sheol are established as being separate from Hell, I'm trying to figure out what they're supposed to be based on the Bible. Basically whether it's the unconscious place of all the dead, like the "soul sleep" doctrine, or if it's a temporary. conscious place that awaits the resurrection, that suits the dead based on their deeds/faith in God. Thank you, though, I'm glad I got all the replies.

I guess it depends where you put the comma- for instance -

"'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" or
"'Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"

I think there are different interpretations of that line with the comma in a different place. Move the comma and you have a whole different meaning.

Silvertusk.

IMO the second interpretation with the comma after 'today' doesn't make sense for several reasons:

1. it makes the word 'today' redundant: 'I say to you today' ? as opposed to what, 'I say to you yesterday' or 'I say to you tomorrow' ?
2. In every other instance where Jesus says 'Truly I say to you ...' it is is always immediately followed by whatever truth Jesus wishes to convey, never followed by a connecting word such as 'today' that is meant to be understood as part of the 'I truly say to you ...'.
3. Reading the sentence without the comma (as it was actually written): 'Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise' is more naturally understood with a comma before 'today', not after.

That's a good point. I agree, I believe the placement of the coma as in the Bible is correct ("Truly I say to you today, ..."). It confuses me, though, so I'm hoping someone with a bit more knowledge and experience with scripture and theology can help me get a sound, Biblically-based conclusion. The mainstream Christian view today that judgement comes at death seems to be insufficient to me, but I'm open to anything that can be supported using scripture.

[christianwarrior]

I had numerous discussions with people on the best English translation of the Bible. Most of the time the issue is that of personal preference. In most English translations your understanding of Scriptural truths will be unaffected. All essential doctrines are preserved in all English translations. In fact even the New World Translation (which are used by the Jehovah's Witnesses) state that Jesus is God.
https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007 ... us-is-god/
https://appliedapologetics.wordpress.co ... anslation/
http://www.searchingthescriptures.net/m ... lation.htm

However answer to the question of where Jesus was in the three days between his death and resurrection (while being a non-essential issue because regardless of where Jesus went ,he died on the cross and rose after three days) is affected by Bible translations:

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (KJV)

Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. (NIV)

he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. (NASB)

In the original Greek the term used is Haden (Hades) http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/2-31.htm. The KJV uses the word hell to describe both Hades (the temporary realm of the dead) and the final Lake of Fire (Gehenna). http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (NASB)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-14.htm

Jesus spent three days in Hades (the temporary realm of the dead). No one is in the Lake of Fire until after Anti-Christ is cast there. Revelation 19:20 The rest of the unrighteous are cast into the Lake of Fire after final battle between Satan and God (Revelation 20) and the Final Judgement.

The Greek word Hades does not refer to the Hades of Greek mythology. It was first used as a translation ,in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), of the Hebrew word Sheol. http://www.septuagint.net/ The writers of the New Testament used the LXX to quote Old Testament Scriptures and used the word Hades for the Hebrew term Sheol. (The Septuagint translated the Hebrew word mashiach as christos which is why the writers of the New Testament refer to Jesus as the Christ). http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/daniel/9.html
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why- ... greek.html

In the Old Testament, Sheol was understood to be a place where both the wicked and righteous go. Wicked people ended up in Sheol: Psalms 9:17, 31:7, 49:14, Isaiah 5:14). The righteous also went there: Genesis 37:35, Job 14:13, Psalms 88:3, Isaiah 38:10. However Sheol had two compartments: Abraham's bosom for the righteous and the place of torment for the wicked. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... am-s-bosom

When Jesus describes what happened to the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31, he said this):

Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ Luke 16:22-26

By the way this event does not appear to be a parable. Luke does not introduce this teaching as a parable and it lacks the illustrations of a parable. Also unlike the parables, proper names are used. http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html

The rich man was in the place of torment and Lazarus was at Abraham's side, but they were both in Sheol/Hades.

After Jesus died, he went to Hades. He went to both Abraham's bosom and the place of torment. Ephesians 4:7-10 (Abraham's bosom) 1 Peter 3:18-19 (the place of torment).

Jesus visited the place of torment.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 1 Peter 3:18-20
The spirits now in prison, are the spirits of those who were wicked. For physical death is merely a separation of the spirit and soul from the physical body not a termination of existence. The proclamation of Jesus was likely the same for the righteous in Abraham's bosom and the wicked in the prison of torment. For the righteous it was good news of Jesus' victory over sin and death. For the wicked it was bad news for their rebellion against God is doomed to failure.

Jesus then went to Abraham's bosom.
Speaking to the thief next to him who believed in him:
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

He descended to Hades and went to Abraham's bosom to gather all the righteous. He ascended with them to Heaven to be with the Father. The way of salvation was the same in the Old Testament times as it is now. https://carm.org/questions/about-doctri ... ints-saved
The people listed in Hebrews 11 were declared righteous by their faith in God and his promise. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NASB Now they did not get the complete picture but they had faith in what God had revealed to them.

"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." John 3:13

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gen ... sus-or-not
Everyone who died before Jesus' final payment for sin went to Sheol. The righteous in the Old Testament who had faith in God and his promise of Abraham's seed were stuck in Abraham's bosom until Jesus descended and ascended with them to Heaven. (See the above link for the Jewish concept of 3 heavens)

This has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Timothy 1:10

The Gospel has abolished death, when Jesus descended to Abraham's bosom, he proclaimed the Gospel to the faithful ones of the Old Testament.

Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.
From the time of Adam until the sacrifice of Jesus, death reigned but through Christ there is a victory over death. When Christ returns to the earth a second time, all those who died but are living in heaven shall be reunited soul and spirit with the body. For the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not of the dead.
After Jesus got the righteous out of Hades/Sheol, the only people left there are the wicked. This is why in Revelation 20 Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. In Revelation 20, Satan is put into the prison of the spirits (v.3). After being released after 1,000 years in the prison, he is defeated again and is cast into the Lake of Fire with the rest of the people still in Hades (v.14). Let there be no doubt everyone who is in Hades still will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

When Jesus died, he went to Hades. To proclaim the victory of the power of death. He went to Abraham's bosom so the righteous could come into Paradise. He went to the Prison to proclaim victory over the forces of evil. Anyone who rejects Christ will go the place of torment in Sheol and will be there until Judgement Day when they are cast into the Lake of Fire.
Why Jesus is the only way:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 45#p169918
Why evil exists:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 20#p173520
Why does Hell exist:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 20#p173521

[Mallz]

Another great post Christianwarrior.
Only one issue. Don't read the New World Translation, and please don't tell people it's OK. I've studied it with JWs and they keep changing it to promote their godless agenda. There were times I pointed out the Divinity of Christ obvious in scriptures (Hewbrews if I remember right) with their own bible. As soon as it's pointed out, it's changed. JW do not believe in the divinity of Christ, they wholeheartedly deny it, and deny the persons of Elohim.

[abelcainsbrother]

Something that I spend a lot of time wondering about. Most Christians nowadays seem to believe that we are judged to go to heaven or hell at death, but I find this to not be what the Bible says. The problem I think is that in many translations, like the KJV and modern translations that try to be "accessible", they translate Sheol and Hades into hell a lot of the time. But, that's not the case. Sheol and Hades in the Bible are the grave, which is, death. The first death, which is physical death. It's described in the Bible more in the OT than the NT, with Jacob saying that he would go down to Sheol in sorrow (Genesis 37:35). I don't believe many would take this as him saying he was going to hell. Also, it says Jesus went down to Sheol/Hades during the three days before he was risen (Acts 2:31). Surely God himself didn't go to hell.

Then, the dead in Sheol are described as "not know(ing) anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Notice throughout Ecclesiastes that it is repeated that the righteous and the wicked share the same fate, death, which is the grave (Ecclesiaste 9:2). Sheol is also described as not having "activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom... where you are going" (Ecclesiastes 9:10). Throughout both the OT and the NT, the resurrection is when the dead shall be judged, not at death.

But, the NT confuses me on this issue. For example, when Jesus is crucified, he tells the thief who accepted him "'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Then, Paul recounts being caught up into Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:3-4). I don't know what to make of this.

Any oppinions?

I notice that Christians when studying about hell only focus on Hades and Sheol while leaving out the word Gehenna and this is why certain Christians think of hell as just being a pit or grave,why leave out Gehenna?

[Jac3510]

Take THAT Sheol

[theophilus]

The death of Jesus made a difference in where saved people go when they die. Before Jesus atoned for our sins by his death all who died went to a place called Sheol or Hades. In Luke 16 Jesus gave the only detailed description of what Hades was like.

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame."
(Luke 16:22-24 ESV)

The rich man was in Hades. The fact that he could see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus showed they were also in Hades, although they were in a different part because of their faith in the coming Messiah.

(If you believe this was a parable rather than a description of actual events I recommend that you read this: https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ual-event/ )

When Jesus died the sins of believers who had died was atoned for and they could now enter Paradise. The reason Jesus descended into Hades was to bring them out to their new home. The details of Jesus' death found in John's gospel show that Jesus died before the repentant thief did. It is possible that the thief was the first believer ever to go directly to Paradise without have to first spend time in Hades.