Hell – is it Relevant Today?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Locker
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#106

Post by Locker » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am

B. W. wrote: I'll return to this thread soon as continue when things smooth out a little!

God bless!!
We'll read you soon! Take your time...

Also Cook - what is your take on eternal annihilation - this doctrine, I have not yet found in the bible - what is it?

Also regarding, "Jesus' high injunction to "be you perfect, even as the Father is perfect" as impossible to fulfil or even approach in any way shape or form with this mindset"...

I think the words translated and used in text "perfect" means to "grow. become mature"

It seems Jesus wants us to become mature and God wants us to "grow in Christ" - I think Jesus is saying the same thing and not inferring the doctrine of perfect perfection. No one can be as perfectly perfect as God is and I do not think this passage is speaking about that and eternal punishment for not meeting this impossible standard.

Anyone else have an opinion as to what Jesus means by, "be you perfect, even as the Father is perfect"???

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#107

Post by Cook » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:36 pm

B.W. wrote:There are many diverse views concerning Hell, punishment, and eternity today. So much so, that the existence of Hell is nearly all but forgotten, or simply glossed over, as one writer put it, “Hell has become air conditioned” in our modern world view. Also, the surging tide of NDE (Near Death Experience) also interposes on the Christian doctrine of Hell. What are we to make of all this information?

Has the concept of Hell become marginalized, over emphasized, or basically forgotten?

The purpose of this post is to examine if the doctrine of Hell is relevant today. Some hold the universalistic view concerning Hell. Others hold the annihilationist analysis of Hell and many hold the traditionalist Christian doctrine of Hell.

No matter one's perspective, the question remains - Hell — is it Relevant Today?

What is your 'take' on the subject?
Anyone else remember that post way way back from November? :lol: That's what B.W. kicked off the topic with. I think we are arriving back at it.

Locker, the "annihilationist" view is that the end result of not believing in God and deciding to follow his will is cessation of existence. (I don't know whether annihilationism an official term, but will use it.) Where were you a 1,000 years ago, or millions of years ago, or billions? You can go back forever through the mystery of the infinite past, and you weren't in existence (I think it's safe to assume nobody here believes anything like reincarnation). Pretty incomprehensible, the depths of eternity. We're all acquainted with this state of non-existence though, we've been there. One view of the afterlife is that future non-existence is what's in store for unbelievers rather than eternal continuation of life for the purpose of suffering and torment as punishment.

My take is that it makes a lot more sense for an infinite God of love and mercy to extinguish life than to resurrect and maintain life for the purpose of inflicting timeless pain. I have Biblical and non-Biblical reasons for the view, and we can get into it more if you'd like. Of course, people believe in the traditional concept of hell and an afterlife of unending suffering because of direct Bible verses. A discussion between the two views is possible here. I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table.

Matthew 5:43-51
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

From the context, I've always read it that the Father loves even those who are unrighteous, and that becoming perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect entails learning to love our neighbors and even our enemies. And this isn't an isolated teaching to me but was living truth in the demonstration of Jesus' life, the talk he walked. So that is what is of paramount importance -- loving others. Doing this and loving God with all your heart, mind and soul. Personally I'm not able to reconcile that there is a form of perfection of love that means inflicting suffering to any degree for judicial purposes, much less for hours rolling into days, years, epochs, an endless future of pain, for the shortcomings and immaturities of our short and rather tiny human lives.

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#108

Post by Cook » Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:52 pm

I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table.
I imagine there can be some differences in what's meant by "relevancy" and I don't think that's been discussed.

* Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?
* Is hell needed in order to have faith?
* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell? :lol:
* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

Just some off the top of my head.

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#109

Post by B. W. » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:08 pm

I have re-edited Post and marked the spots re-edited:
Cook wrote:My take is that it makes a lot more sense for an infinite God of love and mercy to extinguish life than to resurrect and maintain life for the purpose of inflicting timeless pain. I have Biblical and non-Biblical reasons for the view, and we can get into it more if you'd like. Of course, people believe in the traditional concept of hell and an afterlife of unending suffering because of direct Bible verses. A discussion between the two views is possible here. I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table.

Matthew 5:43-51
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

From the context, I've always read it that the Father loves even those who are unrighteous, and that becoming perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect entails learning to love our neighbors and even our enemies. And this isn't an isolated teaching to me but was living truth in the demonstration of Jesus' life, the talk he walked. So that is what is of paramount importance -- loving others. Doing this and loving God with all your heart, mind and soul. Personally I'm not able to reconcile that there is a form of perfection of love that means inflicting suffering to any degree for judicial purposes, much less for hours rolling into days, years, epochs, an endless future of pain, for the shortcomings and immaturities of our short and rather tiny human lives.
If I understand Matthew 5:43-51 in context of perfection — the word means the process of becoming more mature regarding context of passage. It seems to me that Jesus is telling us to grow and become mature in God like Love.

Re- edit begins Here: March 8, 2006

How can a God of Love permit eternal punishment for time without end? Some people think, due to God's great love, it is unjust to eternally punish, or that such punishment is instead temporary, and that everyone will make it to heaven.

The view that Annihilation is a merciful alternative to eternal perdition based on God's love appears to neglect something altogether profound. In order to understand what I mean by this. I must digress for a minute and use the example of the Death Penalty as it is used in the United States so you can gain insight into the point I am trying to make.

The death penalty for murder was imposed in Old Testament Law on the grounds of justice: life for life. This was done for basically two reasons. One reason was to send the murderous criminal to God for final eternal judgment and next, to set an example to the rest of society about the consequence of murderous crime.

For this topic, I would like to use the controversy about the pros and cons of the Death Penalty as a vivid example of why both annihilationism and temporary punishment cannot reflect God's mercy or love.

The pro and con argument about the death penalty goes something like this: One side argues for the justice of the death penalty as merciful and another argues that it is neither just nor merciful.

The main premise used against the death penalty claims that a life sentence, without parole, is a more preferable merciful approach than taking another life.

To further exemplify my point, I'll use the side that is against the Death Penalty to illustrate God's justice of commuting a life sentence verses an annihilationist view of God nullifying someone's life it into some state of non-existence. (Note: This is an example only and not a slight against the death penalty, as I believe murderous criminals should be sent to God for final judgment, justly)

The annihilationist, in this example, would therefore be on the side of the death penalty. In the annihilationist doctrine, it is deemed better to annihilate the murderous individual into a state of eternal non-existence as the more merciful and just alternative to a life sentence of damnation.

What really is God's view on this matter? With these two positions just proposed, would it be just for God to annihilate into eternal non-existence or sentence to an eternal life sentence or a temporary one? How can you truly perceive what God's perspective is? Simple, we learn by examining God's character, nature, and attributes as the Holy Bible discloses within its pages.

For example, God cannot deny Himself. The bible proclaims this fact. What does this indicate? It means, God cannot deny His nature, character, and the essence of who He is. God gave a gift of life to created beings that can reason with intelligence. This is fair and absolves God of any guilt if these individuals decide to misuse the life God gave from Himself and abuse His gift granted for intelligent reason.

To nullify the gift of life, which as a matter of fact, is part of God Himself, as it is written, “In him we live, move and breathe, and have our very being [Acts 17:28].” This means, life comes from God and for God to nullify Life within one of His special created beings by annihilating them into eternal non-existence, is against His very nature: a nature that creates out of nothing - a nature that cannot help but ooze forth life. As God has life, so do we all — that is love.

God's very nature emanates vivifying Love, Justice, Mercy, Righteousness, Fairness, etc, to all. To do so, produces living illustrations to illuminate God's Nature, thus revealing who and what He is. As it is written, “All things were created for thy pleasure.” Revelation 4:11

It is Gods Nature to reveal His personal attributes. God cannot deny Himself. He is a God of the Living and not the dead. Since He lives — Love can. Since He lives — Justice can. Since He lives — righteousness can. Since He lives —Life perseveres reflecting God's attributes by living means and with animate purpose proving God is perfect in all His ways.

God is a God of the living and not a God of the dead. God will not annihilate into a state of eternal non-existence because it is not His nature to do so. This does not mean God cannot do this. He can, but instead He uses self imposed self restraint because His nature and attributes reflect profoundly His noble character. There is nothing unrighteous about God.

Such life producing character will be fair and right in all that it does and in all that it creates. Even at the expense of granting autonomous reasoning and intelligence to special created beings designed for the purpose of God's good and just pleasure to reveal Himself too. These beings have a fair option of rejecting God or excepting Him, freely. To be fair, a choice is laid before them as Ezekiel 18:23, 25, 32 reveals. God is fair.

Therefore, when a created being of note and intelligence sees this choice, they can chose to weasel around God's Nature and His very throne, and even mock God with the fact that He will not annihilate into eternal non-existence anyone due to God's Nature that God cannot deny. They can reject God and the paths of life God freely gives to use, or chose to remain true to God. It is God's nature to grant a test. His ways are pure.

If this personage rejects God, God with wisdom profound will grant that individual enough rope to hang himself by gathering all evidence, plus all rationale, that such weaseling behavior will produce during their personal reign. With this evidence, God will grant a life sentence instead of non-existence because He is just seeing beginning to end. God has a plan (Revelation 21:1).

This is accord with love. God loves those that love him and hates those that hate Him. Love's fairness is beyond our full comprehension. God's love may not be easily provoked, but nevertheless, it can be provoked to anger after a long period of time. God is slow to wrath.

We are to grow in the knowledge of God, including His love that matures us. If we continue to mock God by our very life course, as revealed by how we behave, and treat others, we hang ourselves. No matter how much good we do, we continue to slip back into many forms of weaseling behavior that mocks God's kindness and grace. We need a mirror to see ourselves. It takes courage to look at it and faith to change what we see.

We need a savior to stop what we cannot and thus help us reform. That is the test. Turn back towards God and be part of His plan or away from God towards what we create. The mirror of scripture reveals that human nature is always bent on running away from God making life ugly. God calls forth. Some hear and are changed by God's divine aid: That is Love so true! Choose wisely whom you serve. Return and be part of God's plan.

If one views that this eternal life sentence is unjust and that it would be fairer for the sentence to be reduced and that temporary punishment will redeem any individual, needs to think further on this matter.

If you are I, in this fallen state are permitted a spanking instead of a life sentence, then we would perpetuate sin in the new heaven's and earth. How, by learning after a few thousand years it is okay to sow a few wild oats now and then thus weasel out of any lasting punishment.

After all, many reason that a God so loving will not let you surely die! This is not just nor is it love. If we fail this test, we have just become another snake in the grass

End of re-Edit
Cook wrote:
I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table.
I imagine there can be some differences in what's meant by "relevancy" and I don't think that's been discussed.

* Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?
* Is hell needed in order to have faith?
* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell? :lol:
* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

Just some off the top of my head.
Let's begin! I gave a lot of food for thought!! :idea:
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Last edited by B. W. on Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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#110

Post by Locker » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:51 am

B. W. wrote:We are to grow in the knowledge of God, including His love that matures us. If we continue to mock God by our very life course, as revealed by how we behave, and treat others, we hang ourselves. If you are I, in this fallen state are permitted a spanking instead of a life sentence, then we would perpetuate sin in the new heaven’s and earth. How, by learning after a few thousand years it is okay to sow a few wild oats now and then thus weasel out of any lasting punishment. After all, a God so loving will not let you surely die! That is not just nor does it love.
Cook wrote: I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table

I imagine there can be some differences in what's meant by "relevancy" and I don't think that's been discussed.

* Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?
* Is hell needed in order to have faith?
* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell? :lol:
* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

Just some off the top of my head.
B. W. - Reminds me of Gen. chapter 3God will not let you surely die! - maybe that's how sin entered the world and maybe that the original sin is nothing more than denying God and interjecting our own knowledge of God into the mix based on what good and evil is.

Cook....

*Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?

No - I do not think it would be necessary but if one had such a relationship, then would not God tell them about it? There a lot of scriptures that do.


*Is hell needed in order to have faith?

Again, I would say no but I am not sure what you mean by this?

* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell?

I would have to say 'yes' because you have to be saved from something ;)

* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

I would say - 'yes' and 'no' and a definate 'maybe.'

Learning to love, or about God's love, and what he requires makes me see how I fall short of the glory of God and Thank the savior for save'n a wretch like me! I do not think most people come to Christ out of a fear of hell but rather recognizing that they need help from above after experiencing the cost of sin. Sin has consequence.

Maybe salvation for many is more based on selfishness in that they become saved in order to get from God - good feelings, material things, wants, desires - I do not know - Jac wold have a better answer about this than I have.

Learning to love others comes from salvation and is part of the fruits of salvation - IMHO

Conviction of sin, judgement, and righteousnes comes from the Holy Spirit too. If Judgement is part of this - then it would be 'yes' in learning process.

I think in Matt 25 - Jesus stated that Hell was not originally made for humans but rather for the devil and his angels. But now - it takes human cargo as well.

B. W. has some good points about God's nature, charactor, love, and justice that I have never read - wrote - about before. I can see that, we, and the entire universe, were created only for God's good pleasure to make himself known! Wow! I want to be on God's side - a God so righteous and fair!

Amen!

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#111

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:50 am

Cook wrote: I think ultimately though what may be more interesting is to discuss the original topic, the relevancy of hell, from the different perspectives we may bring to the table

I imagine there can be some differences in what's meant by "relevancy" and I don't think that's been discussed.

* Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?
* Is hell needed in order to have faith?
* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell? :lol:
* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

Just some off the top of my head.
Locker wrote: *Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?

No - I do not think it would be necessary but if one had such a relationship, then would not God tell them about it? There a lot of scriptures that do.

*Is hell needed in order to have faith?

Again, I would say no but I am not sure what you mean by this?

* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell?

I would have to say 'yes' because you have to be saved from something ;)

* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

I would say - 'yes' and 'no' and a definate 'maybe.'

Learning to love, or about God's love, and what he requires makes me see how I fall short of the glory of God and Thank the savior for save'n a wretch like me! I do not think most people come to Christ out of a fear of hell but rather recognizing that they need help from above after experiencing the cost of sin. Sin has consequence.

Maybe salvation for many is more based on selfishness in that they become saved in order to get from God - good feelings, material things, wants, desires - I do not know - Jac wold have a better answer about this than I have.

Learning to love others comes from salvation and is part of the fruits of salvation - IMHO

Conviction of sin, judgement, and righteousnes comes from the Holy Spirit too. If Judgement is part of this - then it would be 'yes' in learning process.

I think in Matt 25 - Jesus stated that Hell was not originally made for humans but rather for the devil and his angels. But now - it takes human cargo as well.
* Is a belief in hell necessary to have a relationship with God?

I would say no but when you learn about God - He will reveal it to you IMHO

* Is hell needed in order to have faith?

IMHO — No:

If you are referring to scaring people to achieve conversions, I would say No again. Faith must be placed in Jesus Christ and God's saving Grace.

However, what is salvation without the need to be saved from something to somewhere?

* Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell? :lol:

IMHO — Many unsuspecting souls wake up there. True Hell is banishment from God: God who animates good healthy life. People choose to go there by rejecting God. Also, many scholars point out that Hell has degrees of punishment. Most punishing for many unsuspecting souls would be boredom and the awareness of rejecting God. - IMHO -

Again, God is the final judge on who goes where and when and how. I do not believe that God sentences children to Hell due to Jesus' own words, referring to children — 'for such is the kingdom of God.' Children brains had not the time to mature into a state of adult reasoning. This would be unjust.

Adult do mature into state of reasoning and are held accountable for misusing the gift of reason and intelligence. There is need for a test to see who will continue to misuse and who will surrender to God. Why perpetuate misery in the new heavens and earth. God has a plan.

The idea that suggests that if you don't believe in hell, God cannot sentence these to hell —IMHO- is not valid. If anyone thinks so, please post why you believe this is so as I am not sure why one would think so?

* Is hell relevant to being increasingly good and learning to love others as the Father loves others?

Again, I would say No. You cannot use Hell as a bullwhip to force love and obedience to God. Love produces obedience towards God. However, God's Love would reveal the awful truth about Hell or it would not be love.

Love is not fruity, flaky, fluffy, and so tolerant that it cannot punish those that hate God's love and reject God. Love may not be easily provoked but over a long period of time it will be provoked to act and take vengeance or it is not Love that truly protects nor Loves.


Note: I re-edited Feb 28 Post to make it clear - you might want to read the re-edit just about Locker's post.
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#112

Post by IRQ Conflict » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:17 pm

Most punishing for many unsuspecting souls would be boredom and the awareness of rejecting God. - IMHO -
Whilst burning alive for the rest of eternity, 'boredom' would be the least of your worries....
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

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#113

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:13 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:
Most punishing for many unsuspecting souls would be boredom and the awareness of rejecting God. - IMHO -
Whilst burning alive for the rest of eternity, 'boredom' would be the least of your worries....
You are right - I am wrong! Thanks for pointing this out - how dumb of me! :oops:

Right foot - insert into mouth and enjoy the toe jam! :wink:
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#114

Post by Locker » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:54 am

B. W. wrote: * Is hell relevant to salvation in that if you don't believe in hell you go to hell?
Again, God is the final judge on who goes where and when and how. I do not believe that God sentences children to Hell due to Jesus’ own words, referring to children – 'for such is the kingdom of God.' Children brains had not the time to mature into a state of adult reasoning. This would be unjust.

Adult do mature into state of reasoning and are held accountable for misusing the gift of reason and intelligence. There is need for a test to see who will continue to misuse and who will surrender to God. Why perpetuate misery in the new heavens and earth. God has a plan.

The idea that suggests that if you don't believe in hell, God cannot sentence these to hell –IMHO- is not valid. If anyone thinks so, please post why you believe this is so as I am not sure why one would think so?

I thought more about those that claim that God sends little kids to hell because the were/ are sinners. If this is true, then God would have to tie a millstone around his own neck and cast himself into the sea. Jesus said this about those who prevent the little ones from entering the kingdom of God. If God did this - he would violate his own word spoke by Jesus.

Is there a set age of accountablity when kids become (reason) like adults or is it based of different ages of maturity? Reason I ask, is those rare kids - 9 - 12 year olds that kill playmates, family, parents - I would say they reached that age early and are held to account by God if they do not repent. make sense? or am I off in left field?

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#115

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:49 am

Locker, God judges the heart and minds of people. He knows whats going on with each individual and when they are able to choose on their own and be responsible for their own actions.

I personally believe that if a child does something grievous and dies God will teach them and forgive them in the after life. He is fair and just and is Love incarnate.

Remember where Jesus was during those 3 day's following His crucifixion?
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1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#116

Post by Bernie » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:51 pm

I have two cents to chip in.....
One condition of agape's unconditional condition is entwined with justice and righteousness. Without consequences, justice loses justice and righteousness becomes irreverent.

I see this argument quite a bit, but I see its logic as flawed.

This turns on one primary principle: The idea of eternal hell violates the perfection of God's attributes.

Humans mete out justice fallibly because we're fallible beings. But orthodoxy declares God perfect in every way. The problem is seen philosophically in that man is a particular entity (thing) who consists in a multitude of elements (attributes), both corporeal and incorporeal. Each human consists of an unfathomable number of bilogical cells, for example. Each person also possesses in his or her nature a wide variety of positive and negative traits, attributes and properties. I don't think a logical case can be made that there doesn't exist at least some good in every human being, and a great deal of evil in all. This is orthodox thinking, nothing new.

To say that God condemns individuals [particulars] to eternal hell violates the perfection of His love, mercy, forgiveness and justice. Lest you think I'm making this up, God Himself laid the groundwork for this principle early in the Bible in His conversation with Abram on the way to Sodom (Gen 18). The principle God affirms is that He will not destroy the whole [city] if there be even a few righteous [elements] within it.

The consignment to hell of individuals who consist of some ratio of both good and evil clearly violates the perfection of those God's attributes mentioned above. (I'm not saying hell doesn't exist, BTW, just responding to a point made early in this thread.)

Is this wrong? If so, how?

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#117

Post by IRQ Conflict » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:39 pm

Bernie wrote:Humans mete out justice fallibly because we're fallible beings.
God alows us to play in the pool of the knowledge of His attributes, but we are restricted to the shallow end. We need to be carefull not to judge the Creators motives with our limited knowledge of the depths of Him.
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1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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#118

Post by Bernie » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:35 pm

Hello IRQ,
"God alows us to play in the pool of the knowledge of His attributes, but we are restricted to the shallow end. We need to be carefull not to judge the Creators motives with our limited knowledge of the depths of Him."
Thanks for the caveat. On the other hand, reason is a tool God gave us, and if you look around it's generally held in pretty high esteem by those serious about their theology. I happen to believe that when God's truth is revealed, it's always logical, rational and reasonable. Truth, perfection, logic, justice and propriety are all of the same genera, yes?

If you think my prior post was at fault from a logical perspective, I'd appreciate it if you'd point out the flaws.

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#119

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:41 am

Bernie wrote:To say that God condemns individuals [particulars] to eternal hell violates the perfection of His love, mercy, forgiveness and justice. Lest you think I'm making this up, God Himself laid the groundwork for this principle early in the Bible in His conversation with Abram on the way to Sodom (Gen 18). The principle God affirms is that He will not destroy the whole [city] if there be even a few righteous [elements] within it.

The consignment to hell of individuals who consist of some ratio of both good and evil clearly violates the perfection of those God's attributes mentioned above. (I'm not saying hell doesn't exist, BTW, just responding to a point made early in this thread.)

Is this wrong? If so, how?
Bernie, Welcome to the thread!

God still destroyed the city. Why?

You cited this - "The consignment to hell of individuals who consist of some ratio of both good and evil clearly violates the perfection of those God's attributes mentioned above. [I'm not saying hell doesn't exist, BTW, just responding to a point made early in this thread] Is this wrong? If so, how?"

Can you explain how it violates the perfection of God's attributes mentioned above more clearly? As for being wrong or right on this matter would be worth more exploration. Let's continue...

It is not the good one does that saves - it is God. In fairness He called. In His designing human reason, God was Just so we can respond to His call by using our own volition. His love begs for our return. Without God's call He would not be fair or just and we would all be lost - without God and hope in this world now and forever.

I see in this, God Majestic! — God, perfect in mercy, perfect in love, perfect in wisdom, perfect justice, and perfect in fairness. I see the greatness of God that human language cannot adequately express which makes me fall to my knees in humble adoration for saving a wretch like me!
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IRQ Conflict
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#120

Post by IRQ Conflict » Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:42 pm

Bernie wrote:Thanks for the caveat.
Your welcome.
On the other hand, reason is a tool God gave us, and if you look around it's generally held in pretty high esteem by those serious about their theology.
Fatih is also a tool God gave us, and if you look around it is pretty highly esteemed by God who is also all round us. That does not mean we should put it into unprofitable things.
If you think my prior post was at fault from a logical perspective, I'd appreciate it if you'd point out the flaws.
Happy to.
The idea of eternal hell violates the perfection of God's attributes.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 5:15 And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:
Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
I don't think a logical case can be made that there doesn't exist at least some good in every human being, and a great deal of evil in all.
Do not confuse mans ability to give good things and do good things with being good. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through us that is the light of the world. Nothing good can be done apart from Him.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
To say that God condemns individuals [particulars] to eternal hell violates the perfection of His love, mercy, forgiveness and justice. Lest you think I'm making this up, God Himself laid the groundwork for this principle early in the Bible in His conversation with Abram on the way to Sodom (Gen 18). The principle God affirms is that He will not destroy the whole [city] if there be even a few righteous [elements] within it.
This is a blatant misrepresentation of scripture. First, a city is not a man. Second a man apart from God has this many redeemable attributes ->0. This is not to say that God isn't longsuffering in patience for a man to accept or reject Him.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Knowing this we can look at what Christ has to say about the wages of sin:

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Hellfire

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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