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Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:15 pm
by PaulSacramento
Well, if God/The Holy Spirit inspired Luke "to collect these accounts and pass them on," why would you think God then entirely left it to Luke without guiding him? That makes little sense. And is God in control of the process of the transmission of Scripture or not?
Is God in control of the process of transmission of scripture?
Define control.
I do NOT think that the HS takes control of people ( possession) and cause them to write, no.
I do believe that the HS INSPIRES and GUIDES the writers, yes.
Many of the same debates are about the Old Testament - and yet Jesus Himself confirmed that the entire writings of the Prophets and The Law were God's Word and that the entirety of it pointed to Him - He was the OT's purpose. Why would we think God got sloppy with the NT? Start doubting it, you have to start doubting Jesus Himself - not to mention God's power to guide the writings and content. Did the NT writers themselves know (at the time) that they were writing Scripture - more often NOT. But that matters little.
God did not get sloppy with the NT or the OT , even though the OT itself has warning about the "lying pen of the scribes".
God spoke, the writers, under the inspiration of the HS, wrote.
That was all.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:16 pm
by PaulSacramento
Did you know that the oldest codex, the Codex Sinaiticus, had the Epistle of Barnabas?
Someone thought it to be inspired enough to include it with all the others.
It survives to this day...
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:43 pm
by Philip
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:02 pm
by EssentialSacrifice
You must be very wary of your sources here philip. This Ankerberg fellow is not only not a scholar, he perverts the word of God, outright lies and is in denial of biblical morays and scriptural veracity. He is, IMO, a heretic in may ways and will absolutely be called on the carpet, by God, 2 Timothy 4:3, for his teachings that have lead many astray.
philip. I used some very forceful words here, and apologies that I did. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, especially yours, and I know I did... again apologies. But, please believe me, I have read this man too and have found his scriptural interpretations very lacking... he has twisted bible verse to read his way and he in know way represents the great majority ofexcellent evangelical scholars and teachers., such as and importantly including Norman Geisler (Christian Ethics, The Big Books...a true scholar!). I can and will rightly show you if you like, but only because he leads people down the path of perdition with some of his sermons. This is the reason I included the verse from Timothy. Many others in the NT can also ascribe definition to those who wantonly perverse the scriptures for their interests, not for the love of God. He intentionally drives a wedge between the Protestant, Evangelical church and the Roman/Greek Orthodox churches with enmity and hateful language.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:57 pm
by RickD
EssentialSacrifice wrote:You must be very wary of your sources here philip. This Ankerberg fellow is not only not a scholar, he perverts the word of God, outright lies and is in denial of biblical morays and scriptural veracity. He is, IMO, a heretic in may ways and will absolutely be called on the carpet, by God, 2 Timothy 4:3, for his teachings that have lead many astray.
philip. I used some very forceful words here, and apologies that I did. I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, especially yours, and I know I did... again apologies. But, please believe me, I have read this man too and have found his scriptural interpretations very lacking... he has twisted bible verse to read his way and he in know way represents the great majority ofexcellent evangelical scholars and teachers., such as and importantly including Norman Geisler (Christian Ethics, The Big Books...a true scholar!). I can and will rightly show you if you like, but only because he leads people down the path of perdition with some of his sermons. This is the reason I included the verse from Timothy. Many others in the NT can also ascribe definition to those who wantonly perverse the scriptures for their interests, not for the love of God. He intentionally drives a wedge between the Protestant, Evangelical church and the Roman/Greek Orthodox churches with enmity and hateful language.
ES,
I'd like to read what you have to say about John Ankerberg. He's a very prominent Christian speaker. If he is a heretic, we all should know. I'm starting a new thread, where you can post the info you have. Then we can discuss what you post.
Here's the link to the new thread:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=40104
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:45 am
by PaulSacramento
Not sure your point since I was referring to the EPISTLE of Barnabas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas
And my point was that someone obviously thought of it as "good enough" to be included in the Codex.
Point being that just because SOME have decided that Canon "A" is the correct one and others decided on Canon "B" , etc, doesn't actually make them right.
We have ample evidence that for the first 3 centuries of Christianity, other books and letters were viewed as authoritive to one degree or another.
Lets not forget that Jude quotes 1Enoch through out his letter.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:59 am
by Philip
Point being that just because SOME have decided that Canon "A" is the correct one and others decided on Canon "B" , etc, doesn't actually make them right.
That is correct!
There is, however, consistent Scriptural criteria that offers the standards for what should be considered Scripture. And the non-canonical books don't meet them. It's not a mere matter of picking and choosing or that one group has the authority to dictate to everyone else what the standards are or which books meet those standards.
I think the following link offers a pretty good summation of reasonable criteria for what is and what shouldn't be considered as part of the canon:
https://defendtheword.wordpress.com/200 ... n-geisler/
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:22 am
by PaulSacramento
Philip wrote:Point being that just because SOME have decided that Canon "A" is the correct one and others decided on Canon "B" , etc, doesn't actually make them right.
That is correct!
There is, however, consistent Scriptural criteria that offers the standards for what should be considered Scripture. And the non-canonical books don't meet them. It's not a mere matter of picking and choosing or that one group has the authority to dictate to everyone else what the standards are or which books meet those standards.
I think the following link offers a pretty good summation of reasonable criteria for what is and what shouldn't be considered as part of the canon:
https://defendtheword.wordpress.com/200 ... n-geisler/
Have you read this?
The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance Paperback – Mar 1 1997
by Bruce M. Metzger
Probably the definite work on the subject.
The one by F.F Bruce is also good.
I have no problems with the catholic or protestant canon, though I tend to believe that the books left out of the protestant canon should never have been left out, but theologically speaking, it's a moot point.
Lets not forget that one of the most controversial inclusions in the NT was Revelation, and some, like Calvin , believed it was not inspired and Luther didn't believe it to be apostolic.
We should never forget that there are other canons, such as the Coptic and Ethiopian ones.
Now, the whole point of this is that it is NOT man that decides what is authoritative but God BUT it IS up to man to decide for themselves how to understand those books and letters.
We can't simply state that so-and-so says so and we agree, we need more than that.
I came to the conclusion that the bible is holy and sacred NOT because any man told me so, but because I listen and learned and trusted in the HS.
We should never rely on the opinion of others for our salvation, nor should we rely on the opinions of others for how we see the bible.
We may be wrong of course, but then it will be on US and I would rather stand before God and say:
" Lord, forgive, I thought I was doing right, believed in my heart as was doing right, but did wrong" than to say:
Yeah, I did what men in authority told me I should do based on THEIR understanding.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:59 am
by Philip
I have no problems with the catholic or protestant canon, though I tend to believe that the books left out of the protestant canon should never have been left out, but theologically speaking, it's a moot point.
The links below list some of the reasons why they (the Apocrypha) SHOULD have been and are left out of the Protestant Canon:
https://carm.org/why-apocrypha-not-in-bible
https://carm.org/errors-apocrypha
https://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php/The_Apocrypha
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:04 am
by PaulSacramento
And to counter:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don ... rt_394.cfm
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resou ... apocrypha/
Point being that just because SOME say it so, doesn't make it so.
As for the criteria, that to is subjective, though I do agree with most of the criteria I think that many look at those books with their mind already made up.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:39 am
by neo-x
Phillip, B.W and FL.
I am not sure if you misread me or what but to be clear.
My objection to what you guys are claiming is that the idea that those who never heard the gospel are the ones who God knows would already reject has no biblical support.
I don't think anyone is innocent. But I do think that those who never heard of the gospel have it unfair if they never had a chance. That is just who I find God to be and that is what I think is correct.
FL, living in a muslim country can affect your faith. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. But not in ways you have been writing about here.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:53 am
by Storyteller
neo-x wrote:Phillip, B.W and FL.
I am not sure if you misread me or what but to be clear.
My objection to what you guys are claiming is that the idea that those who never heard the gospel are the ones who God knows would already reject has no biblical support.
I don't think anyone is innocent. But I do think that those who never heard of the gospel have it unfair if they never had a chance. That is just who I find God to be and that is what I think is correct.
FL, living in a muslim country can affect your faith. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. But not in ways you have been writing about here.
Hey neo
I think with regards to those that have never heard the Gospel we just have to trust that God knows what He is doing. God will always be just, will He not? It`s a tough one, and I`m not sure that anyone knows the answers apart from Him.
As for your faith, I see it as a strong faith and I have nothing but respect for you keeping your faith living where you do. You are in my prayers, my friend
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:34 am
by neo-x
Storyteller wrote:neo-x wrote:Phillip, B.W and FL.
I am not sure if you misread me or what but to be clear.
My objection to what you guys are claiming is that the idea that those who never heard the gospel are the ones who God knows would already reject has no biblical support.
I don't think anyone is innocent. But I do think that those who never heard of the gospel have it unfair if they never had a chance. That is just who I find God to be and that is what I think is correct.
FL, living in a muslim country can affect your faith. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way. But not in ways you have been writing about here.
Hey neo
I think with regards to those that have never heard the Gospel we just have to trust that God knows what He is doing. God will always be just, will He not? It`s a tough one, and I`m not sure that anyone knows the answers apart from Him.
As for your faith, I see it as a strong faith and I have nothing but respect for you keeping your faith living where you do. You are in my prayers, my friend
I completely agree, I have no idea how God will set those right. I just believe he will. That is my belief nothing else. Thank you for your kind prayers and respect to you.
God bless you.
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:55 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
Storyteller wrote:I think with regards to those that have never heard the Gospel we just have to trust that God knows what He is doing. God will always be just, will He not? It`s a tough one, and I`m not sure that anyone knows the answers apart from Him.
It is
not a tough question! The Bible addresses this
over and over and over again! Those who earnestly seek God will find Him. God promises that He will reveal Himself to seekers. Hebrews 11:6 is just one of many promises about such seekers.
Storyteller wrote:I completely agree, I have no idea how God will set those right. I just believe he will. That is my belief nothing else.
God sets those people right the same way He sets Old Testament saints right and newly regenerate saints right: through Jesus' atoning sacrifice.
None of this is really complicated! A simple reading of the Bible, along with faith that what you are reading is true, would put your mind at ease on this and many other topics.
FL
Re: Those who never Heard the Message
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:04 am
by Storyteller
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Storyteller wrote:I think with regards to those that have never heard the Gospel we just have to trust that God knows what He is doing. God will always be just, will He not? It`s a tough one, and I`m not sure that anyone knows the answers apart from Him.
It is
not a tough question! The Bible addresses this
over and over and over again! Those who earnestly seek God will find Him. God promises that He will reveal Himself to seekers. Hebrews 11:6 is just one of many promises about such seekers.
Storyteller wrote:I completely agree, I have no idea how God will set those right. I just believe he will. That is my belief nothing else.
God sets those people right the same way He sets Old Testament saints right and newly regenerate saints right: through Jesus' atoning sacrifice.
None of this is really complicated! A simple reading of the Bible, along with faith that what you are reading is true, would put your mind at ease on this and many other topics.
FL