Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

[Kurieuo]

Very interesting post Kurieuo.

I totally agree that there is an underlying emotional issue, I am also a big fan of Ravi's work in apologetics.

You are right modern atheism is not really agnosticism as agnosticism is saying "things cannot be known" and the atheist is saying "I don't know", so I guess it is more of a ignorant position??

I have read Mere Christianity and C.S.Lewis is fantastic at drawing out these questions in an easy to understand way.

I've stated to my wife that if I were ever to fall away from God, that it wouldn't be through embracing Atheism. Such is too simple a view. Antony Flew ultimately thought the same when he switched from Atheism to some Deism/Theism to the dismay of many. Too many beliefs I strongly have would start unraveling and no longer make sense, as CS Lewis points out here about belief in justice. Rather, it would be through rejecting God on an emotional level. Rejecting God for creating life and putting up with evil (even though I myself am imperfect). It would be through me moving away from God, not through a denial of God's existence.

So would you think the anti-theist (if that is the right word??) position would be a more viable position over atheism, because the anti-theist accepts that God is a possibility but even if God did exist he would hate God for emotional reasons? Holding this position would also leave them able to at least put some cards on the table.

Hmm... I was trying to think of a word to call it.

If Theism is "belief in God", I can't help reading anti-Theism as "against belief in God." So I'm not sure it captures the position. Is there even a word to describe a position of belief in God yet wanting nothing to do with him?

It would have to be "Theism" joined to something else, perhaps "Reluctant Theist", "Despairing Theist" or perhaps just a simply "anti-God"?

But, yes... definitely more rationally viable and coherently justifiable. Harder to attack/defend against too since all your normal Theistic arguments often shared amongst Christians, Muslims and Jews no longer work.

[Danieltwotwenty]

I do like "reluctant theism" but maybe this is more appropriate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism ?

Misotheism first appears in a dictionary in 1907.[4] The Greek μισόθεος is found in Aeschylus (Agamemnon 1090). The English word appears as a nonce-coinage, used by Thomas de Quincey in 1846.[5] It is comparable to the original meaning of Greek atheos of "rejecting the gods, rejected by the gods, godforsaken". Strictly speaking, the term connotes an attitude towards the gods (one of hatred) rather than making a statement about their nature. Bernard Schweizer (2002) stated "that the English vocabulary seems to lack a suitable word for outright hatred of God... [even though] history records a number of outspoken misotheists", believing "misotheism" to be his original coinage. Applying the term to the work of Philip Pullman (His Dark Materials), Schweizer clarifies that he does not mean the term to carry the negative connotations of misanthropy: "To me, the word connotes a heroic stance of humanistic affirmation and the courage to defy the powers that rule the universe."[6]

[RickD]

Is there even a word to describe a position of belief in God yet wanting nothing to do with him?

How about "Pigheaded Atheist"?

[Kurieuo]

I do like "reluctant theism" but maybe this is more appropriate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism ?

Misotheism first appears in a dictionary in 1907.[4] The Greek μισόθεος is found in Aeschylus (Agamemnon 1090). The English word appears as a nonce-coinage, used by Thomas de Quincey in 1846.[5] It is comparable to the original meaning of Greek atheos of "rejecting the gods, rejected by the gods, godforsaken". Strictly speaking, the term connotes an attitude towards the gods (one of hatred) rather than making a statement about their nature. Bernard Schweizer (2002) stated "that the English vocabulary seems to lack a suitable word for outright hatred of God... [even though] history records a number of outspoken misotheists", believing "misotheism" to be his original coinage. Applying the term to the work of Philip Pullman (His Dark Materials), Schweizer clarifies that he does not mean the term to carry the negative connotations of misanthropy: "To me, the word connotes a heroic stance of humanistic affirmation and the courage to defy the powers that rule the universe."[6]

Interesting. Based on my reading of Atheistic philosophers, the best explanations to meaning of life that I've read liken it to Sisyphus in Greek mythology who was punished by being compelled to: "roll an immense boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this action forever." He does in spite of the gods, no doubt shaking his fists in their faces, and this motivates him to get on with the life's meaningless with some sense of nobility...

Quite a depressing view, but regardless it'd seem to me that this attitude towards life is actually a form of Misotheism rather than something Atheists can consistently embrace. Perhaps many Atheists are in fact more Misotheists?

[Thadeyus]

Going to cut/paste and switch your quotes around Dan, since I feel answering them in this fashion is a tad better. Also I have, multiple times, on this board called myself an Atheist who is on the agnostic side fo the sliding scale. The reply to Kurieuo was a more general "Lump Atheists into this grab bag." kind of thing.

If you have no alternative answer then really you cannot dismiss a belief as being not true, you could only say I don't know yet because it is still remains entirely possible that their belief could be true. Dan

Yes...I can dismiss things. In another thread I have pointed out that Christians dismiss all other religious beliefs except their own. To use the words of some one much smarter than I. As an Agnostic atheist, I'm just going one belief further.

That's the whole point, why dismiss someone else's belief if ultimately you don't really know and cannot provide an alternate answer.

Um...why must there be an alternative? (Hence getting back to another thread about Atheism being a religion etc) There can be a negative or even a vacuum. A nothing.

Now, I gather you dismiss every one else's belief because you have yours.

I just don't find any belief systems rational/coherent/honest enough to be worth following.

Much cheers to all.

[Kurieuo]

Going to cut/paste and switch your quotes around Dan, since I feel answering them in this fashion is a tad better. Also I have, multiple times, on this board called myself an Atheist who is on the agnostic side fo the sliding scale. The reply to Kurieuo was a more general "Lump Atheists into this grab bag." kind of thing.

If you have no alternative answer then really you cannot dismiss a belief as being not true, you could only say I don't know yet because it is still remains entirely possible that their belief could be true. Dan

Yes...I can dismiss things. In another thread I have pointed out that Christians dismiss all other religious beliefs except their own. To use the words of some one much smarter than I. As an Agnostic atheist, I'm just going one belief further.

That's the whole point, why dismiss someone else's belief if ultimately you don't really know and cannot provide an alternate answer.

Um...why must there be an alternative? (Hence getting back to another thread about Atheism being a religion etc) There can be a negative or even a vacuum. A nothing.

Now, I gather you dismiss every one else's belief because you have yours.

I just don't find any belief systems rational/coherent/honest enough to be worth following.

Much cheers to all.

In response to the "Atheism: Belief or Position?" question, in that thread you wrote: "For my self, on the inside looking out, it's a position."

So it seems you follow a position that you obviously see is worth following.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Going to cut/paste and switch your quotes around Dan, since I feel answering them in this fashion is a tad better. Also I have, multiple times, on this board called myself an Atheist who is on the agnostic side fo the sliding scale. The reply to Kurieuo was a more general "Lump Atheists into this grab bag." kind of thing.

Yes...I can dismiss things. In another thread I have pointed out that Christians dismiss all other religious beliefs except their own. To use the words of some one much smarter than I. As an Agnostic atheist, I'm just going one belief further.

You certainly can dismiss anything you like but that does not make it rational or honest, the position of not knowing or we cannot know is unable to dismiss anything and remain rational because you don't actually know.

Um...why must there be an alternative? (Hence getting back to another thread about Atheism being a religion etc) There can be a negative or even a vacuum. A nothing.

Because without belief in an alternative there is no logical reason to say that any belief is untrue, because ultimately you have admitted you don't really know. A vacuum is not nothing by the way, nothing is nothing and from nothing only nothing comes which isn't even something. So a vacuum would be your alternate explanation and your answer to the nature of reality?

Now, I gather you dismiss every one else's belief because you have yours.

Of course I do because I have an alternative explanation which I think the evidence supports.

I just don't find any belief systems rational/coherent/honest enough to be worth following.

Yet your own quasi belief (world view) system is incoherent, irrational and dishonest and definitely not worth following (in my opinion).

[Thadeyus]

You certainly can dismiss anything you like but that does not make it rational or honest,

Dismissing things doesn't make doing it dishonest or irrational, either.

...the position of not knowing or we cannot know is unable to dismiss anything and remain rational because you don't actually know.

Is this a 'We can't know what we don't know" kind of knowing thing?

Because without belief in an alt...

Um..so your stance is that people must believe something/People must believe in something/People cannot not believe in something?

Of course I do because I have an alternative explanation which I think the evidence supports.

And indeed,, much more power and happiness to you and yours.
I don't think any evidence is there to believe in any gods.

Yet your own quasi belief (world view) system is incoherent, irrational and dishonest and definitely not worth following (in my opinion).

Um...well I'd say I have no belief system (Which you seem to believe I can't do) And, hence, not actually having said system it can't be any of those labels you state since it isn't.

And, again to paraphrase some one far smarter than myself. "I reject your belief and simply do not substitute my own!"

Much cheers to all.

[Kurieuo]

I totally agree that there is an underlying emotional issue, I am also a big fan of Ravi's work in apologetics.

Speaking of Ravi, I just performed a Google search on incoherence of atheism...

And a bunch of interesting pages came up, however one of the results was actually a video of Ravi talking on "The Incoherence of Atheism" (http://www.guidemagazine.org/randy-fish ... of-atheism)

Haven't yet watched it. But the coincidence of it being Ravi amongst all others after recently mentioning him quite amused me. Looking forward to watching it.

[Danieltwotwenty]

So since there is no point in discussing anything with you Thad because you have nothing to offer, I will end the conversation here.

Cheers.

Dan

[Neha]

Neha, please clear up the contradiction between your two posts below.

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:
I was a YEC once and I can assure you it doesn't hold up, not according to science it does not.

If you have never seen anything that hints at God, how were you once a YEC?

Raised Yec! But the problems within it were too many, even as a child, God drowning all the world in Noah's flood did not make sense to me.

Neha,
I'm still not understanding how you could be a YEC if you've never seen anything that hints at God. In order to be a YEC, one must believe in God. Are you saying you were forced to be a YEC?

As a child I was told YEC was correct and was raised to believe that way, I believed it, so I was infact a YEC until I completely left it. I just wanted to say that some things stood out to me to not make sense even as a child.

[Neha]

Dear Dan,

what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Neha, please clear up the contradiction between your two posts below.

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:
I was a YEC once and I can assure you it doesn't hold up, not according to science it does not.

If you have never seen anything that hints at God, how were you once a YEC?

Raised Yec! But the problems within it were too many, even as a child, God drowning all the world in Noah's flood did not make sense to me.

Neha,
I'm still not understanding how you could be a YEC if you've never seen anything that hints at God. In order to be a YEC, one must believe in God. Are you saying you were forced to be a YEC?

As a child I was told YEC was correct and was raised to believe that way, I believed it, so I was infact a YEC until I completely left it. I just wanted to say that some things stood out to me to not make sense even as a child.

This is a small part of the reason why I lean towards Theistic Evolution, plus I think the Bible just doesn't say concretely how God made the world, so really I am open to all ideas.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Dear Dan,

what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.

You have inadvertently created your own belief, all worldviews carry faith in one form or another, but the question is are they rational and can they explain all the questions listed in the OP.

[Neha]

Dear Dan,

what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.

You have inadvertently created your own belief, all worldviews carry faith in one form or another. This though is probably for another thread as it is coming off topic, feel free to start another if you wish.

Which belief is that Dan?