Can you prove God exists only using logic?

[Jad]

Yes it CAN be proven that God exists using only logic and reason. First of all, look at everything that exists in the world today, as far as living creatures and plants. Is it truly logical to think that we "evolved"? If we did, then it is only logical that there would still be creatures still in the middle of evolution. Since there aren't, this way of thinking is illogical. Others believe in the "big bang" theory. If this were true, then the entire universe came into existance from a "big bang". Applyig logic and reason, this is impossible because something would have been created from nothing. Look at how wonderfully everything was created, and how everything "works" together, from all aspects. From the sun being in just the right distance, to how animals interact with one another, all LOGICAL conclusions are that we were created.

Ah but what if God used evolution (just micro-evolution) to create? Or what if God started creation ex nihilo (out of nothing) and it started with what scientists refer to as a big bang?

To create 'out of nothing' is much different to creating 'from nothing'. Something cannot exist from nothing. What is nothing? Nothing is exactly that, nothing. Therefore nothing is nothing and therefore can do nothing. To say nothing can cause or produce is to treat a non thing as if it were a thing, but that is absurd. Since nothing is nothing it has no power by which to exert upon another to cause it, because it lacks existence which is necessary to have in order to do something. So nothing cannot cause something. Only something can cause something to exist.

Variation of species is by definition a process of evolution. This is what micro-evolution is. Macro-evolution however is the changing or development of one species to another different species, of which there is no evidence for whatsoever. You are quite correct though, if macro-evolution were true there would still be creatures evolving from one species to another, being testable and repeatable in the science lab.

[madscientist]

Well the evolution debate comes again. How can we know that there are no species evolving one from another? it could have taken millions of years, so still cant be doable in a lab.
And yes - evolution and big bang could have happened with God wishing them to happen and organize everything. Of course it's amazing how it all works. The thing is, I believe God just planned it all, organized every particle necessary to be where it needs to be. And then as a result, things evolved into the form they are. But of course a non-controlled, random evolution with no control of some other supreme being - that would be a bunch of matter and energy and entropy which makes no sense.

But we as humans perceive the world etc. I also wondered about this last week or so - that we are so close to perfect... we are non-living particles stuck up together by non-living forces. nothung more. non-living. but then there's some miracle and we have whats called life. That is the most amazing, the ability to perceive and respont to world. And have feelings. Pure random energy and mass together could not perceive of that. and also that our senses are no better than particles, molecules, atoms etc together. And that what we see, hear, smell etc. can make us have either positive or negative attitude. that what we see makes sense, isnt just a mess of all random colors. And its nothing more than tiny particles and energy which by themselves mean nothing and are lifeless...

[Jad]

Well the evolution debate comes again. How can we know that there are no species evolving one from another? it could have taken millions of years, so still cant be doable in a lab.
And yes - evolution and big bang could have happened with God wishing them to happen and organize everything. Of course it's amazing how it all works. The thing is, I believe God just planned it all, organized every particle necessary to be where it needs to be. And then as a result, things evolved into the form they are. But of course a non-controlled, random evolution with no control of some other supreme being - that would be a bunch of matter and energy and entropy which makes no sense.

But we as humans perceive the world etc. I also wondered about this last week or so - that we are so close to perfect... we are non-living particles stuck up together by non-living forces. nothung more. non-living. but then there's some miracle and we have whats called life. That is the most amazing, the ability to perceive and respont to world. And have feelings. Pure random energy and mass together could not perceive of that. and also that our senses are no better than particles, molecules, atoms etc together. And that what we see, hear, smell etc. can make us have either positive or negative attitude. that what we see makes sense, isnt just a mess of all random colors. And its nothing more than tiny particles and energy which by themselves mean nothing and are lifeless...

I don't believe micro-evolution requires randomness or chance. It looks very ordered to me. I think God put it all together then rested. This is what we humans now call nature and yes it is amazing.

[Jad]

OK so are you saying we shouldnt enjoy things down here - not to a large extent? And why would we get lured by the good things here? If we still put God on the 1st place... and accept He is the ultimate Creator of everything - can we "love" those earthly things? I mean, heaven will be perfect. If we do all and glorify Him "by enjoying Him forever" - is it good, sufficient?

Sorry mate I forgot to respond to this post.
No I am not saying we shouldn't enjoy things down here I am saying we should enjoy good things down here that God has blessed us with but we shouldn't then love these good things more than Christ. A man may be blessed with a lovely wife or even children; these are good things but he shouldn't love them more than Jesus. When I was a teenager I loved music so much that I put it first in my life. Music is good and is a part of God's creation but I started to love it more than I did Jesus. We all get tempted to love the good things of this world more than we do Christ, just as much if not more than the bad things of this world. Keeping fit and healthy is a good thing to do. But if keeping fit and healthy overrides or takes over your time with Jesus, or becomes a higher priority than what you were called to do, this good thing becomes a sin for you.

Here's a thought to ponder,

We Christians generally tithe around 10% of our income yes? Personally I think that should be the minimum but in general those who tithe do so by giving 10% of everything they earn. What if we were to apply this tithe to not just money, but our personal time? How much time, lets say, do we give to God in a week? Well 10% of a week is over 16 hours. WOW! I need to pull my socks up. And if 10% is the minimum well I am in dire need of some kind of time management program!

Anyway just a thought.

As for the old and new way of living - the only difference is that we do it with Christ? Old - without Him, new with Him? and what difference does it make in commandments - that we believe in Him whilst doing these things?

Not just with Christ but in Christ we do all things. Jesus is the only way to the father, to eternal intimacy with God. And it is by grace that we receive this gift, not by works. The old way the Jews followed the commandments as the way to the father, to Heaven. This is 'works' based as opposed to the new way where Jesus is the way to the father. He is the way, the truth and the life. The law is still there of course, along with the Proverbs and all that, but for our sanctification. They are not however the means to our salvation. Christ is, by His grace (no works).

Good chatting with you again!

In Christ
Jad

[madscientist]

Ah no need to worry Jad! You can take your time:)

I don't believe micro-evolution requires randomness or chance. It looks very ordered to me. I think God put it all together then rested. This is what we humans now call nature and yes it is amazing.

By the "randomness" I mean the fact that particles move and interact randomly etc that the final product is "random". But of course God made it so. But let's take mutations for example... they arise pretty much randomly. And then? They can stay in the generations and never get out. So some time ago soemthing happened, e.g. the melanic form of peppered moth arose (done it in bio some weeks ago! ) apparently by random mutation. Now we take it as an official phenotype. The thing is - to what extent can those random mutations be beneficial and/or cause good things? I mean, how did the human race get so diverse in each part of the world? From somewhere those changes must have arisen...

As for enjoying things - hmm yes it happens often. We forget about God. But that's just human nature. And i think at times even if we want to have God in first place it seems impossible. We try and want to focus - but then for example, someone invites us somewhere, have parties, do this, go there etc and then we don't have time. But we are not to pray 24hrs/24 are we?? NO! So how to ensure God is in first place, yet we dont spend our lives only constantly sacrificed to God and dont care about anything else? i mean, you can do other things yet have a relationship with God and be saved even if you dont pray all the time etc. And if we listen to non-religious music, see non-religious, maybe funny movies, do funny, non-related-to-Christ things etc. is it wrong to do/like things not directly related to Jesus?
As for spending the 10% of time - however, I read somewhere that spending time with God and praying does not mean jus kneeling and saying words and so on. it can be just simple thoughts about whatever we do. thank for food, thank for a nice day, seeing someone, getting what we want, demaning something, praising God for nature when we walk in forest etc etc. Do all these small things count? Think so!! But if they add up to 10%... eh dont think so... or do they?
In Christ. MS

[Jad]

The thing is - to what extent can those random mutations be beneficial and/or cause good things? I mean, how did the human race get so diverse in each part of the world? From somewhere those changes must have arisen...

I think the tower of Babel was a good start as far as humans go I think. After that it's all variation within a species still. There are no cats turning into dogs or apes to humans etc.

As for enjoying things - hmm yes it happens often. We forget about God. But that's just human nature. And i think at times even if we want to have God in first place it seems impossible. We try and want to focus - but then for example, someone invites us somewhere, have parties, do this, go there etc and then we don't have time. But we are not to pray 24hrs/24 are we?? NO! So how to ensure God is in first place, yet we dont spend our lives only constantly sacrificed to God and dont care about anything else? i mean, you can do other things yet have a relationship with God and be saved even if you dont pray all the time etc. And if we listen to non-religious music, see non-religious, maybe funny movies, do funny, non-related-to-Christ things etc. is it wrong to do/like things not directly related to Jesus?
As for spending the 10% of time - however, I read somewhere that spending time with God and praying does not mean jus kneeling and saying words and so on. it can be just simple thoughts about whatever we do. thank for food, thank for a nice day, seeing someone, getting what we want, demaning something, praising God for nature when we walk in forest etc etc. Do all these small things count? Think so!! But if they add up to 10%... eh dont think so... or do they?
In Christ. MS

You are quite correct spending time with God can mean many things other than just prayer or private time with God. Still does it all add up to 16 hours or more a week? Not sure. How do you time such things? It does make you think though doesn't it!

[jenna]

Good response, Jad.

[Jad]

Thanks Jen! Your too kind.

[jenna]

Yes it CAN be proven that God exists using only logic and reason. First of all, look at everything that exists in the world today, as far as living creatures and plants. Is it truly logical to think that we "evolved"? If we did, then it is only logical that there would still be creatures still in the middle of evolution. Since there aren't, this way of thinking is illogical. Others believe in the "big bang" theory. If this were true, then the entire universe came into existance from a "big bang". Applyig logic and reason, this is impossible because something would have been created from nothing. Look at how wonderfully everything was created, and how everything "works" together, from all aspects. From the sun being in just the right distance, to how animals interact with one another, all LOGICAL conclusions are that we were created.

Ah but what if God used evolution (just micro-evolution) to create? Or what if God started creation ex nihilo (out of nothing) and it started with what scientists refer to as a big bang?
With all the evidence today, and reasons stated above (creatures in evolution, the sun being exactly the right distance, etc, we would still logically have to conclude that God existed.
To create 'out of nothing' is much different to creating 'from nothing'. Something cannot exist from nothing. What is nothing? Nothing is exactly that, nothing. Therefore nothing is nothing and therefore can do nothing. To say nothing can cause or produce is to treat a non thing as if it were a thing, but that is absurd. Since nothing is nothing it has no power by which to exert upon another to cause it, because it lacks existence which is necessary to have in order to do something. So nothing cannot cause something. Only something can cause something to exist.

Variation of species is by definition a process of evolution. This is what micro-evolution is. Macro-evolution however is the changing or development of one species to another different species, of which there is no evidence for whatsoever. You are quite correct though, if macro-evolution were true there would still be creatures evolving from one species to another, being testable and repeatable in the science lab.

I do think that man has "evolved" somewhat. While I have no evidence and this is just speculation, I think man is taller today than he was in the past. And some animals have "evolved", such as the wolf into all the dogs we have today. Again, this is only speculation.

[jenna]

Thanks Jen! Your too kind.

thank you for that, Jad. Please see response to other post. I havent quite got this figured out yet, but I think some of my response got mixed up in your post.

[Jad]

I do think that man has "evolved" somewhat. While I have no evidence and this is just speculation, I think man is taller today than he was in the past. And some animals have "evolved", such as the wolf into all the dogs we have today. Again, this is only speculation.

No what you've stated is not speculation but known fact. What you are referring to here is variation within a 'kind' or 'species'. Horses, Zebra's, Ponies etc are all a variation of one kind of species. This is micro-evolution and it has no conflict with creation and the God of the Bible.
Man has been both taller and shorter in different parts of history and different parts of the world. It's not like Adam and Eve were short and from there we slowly started getting taller and taller. As you will notice there is a wonderful variation of tall and short people in this world hehe. Macro-evolution however is in regards to speciation or 'kinds', new information and new molecular capability must occur. Evolution scientists claim speciation to work through mutation (microevolution) but its never ever been proven. The idea that a different mixture of already present information and molecular capability can create a completely new species or 'kind' is completely false. It's never ever been proven. But they still work on new theories presuming it were true and build on it. And that is what you have today in text books at school.

[jenna]

I do think that man has "evolved" somewhat. While I have no evidence and this is just speculation, I think man is taller today than he was in the past. And some animals have "evolved", such as the wolf into all the dogs we have today. Again, this is only speculation.

No what you've stated is not speculation but know fact. What you are referring to here is variation within a 'kind' or 'species'. Horses, Zebra's, Ponies etc are all a variation of one kind of species. This is micro-evolution and it has no conflict with creation and the God of the Bible.
Man has been both taller and shorter in different parts of history and different parts of the world. It's not like Adam and Eve were short and from there we slowly started getting taller and taller. As you will notice there is a wonderful variation of tall and short people in this world hehe. Macro-evolution however is in regards to speciation or 'kinds', new information and new molecular capability must occur. Evolution scientists claim speciation to work through mutation (microevolution) but its never ever been proven. The idea that a different mixture of already present information and molecular capability can create a completely new species or 'kind' is completely false. It's never ever been proven. But they still work on new theories presuming it were true and build on it. And that is what you have today in text books at school.

Oh, ok. that's news to me. thx for the info.

[Jad]

Oh, ok. that's news to me. thx for the info.

I think the biggest question on this issue is how long these things take, thousands or millions of years. There is also the question of original sin and when it actually started, with Adam (man) or was there millions and millions of years prior to Adam of pain, suffering and death for all plants, animals, and the universe etc. These are really tough questions of which everyone has varied opinion of.

[jenna]

Oh, ok. that's news to me. thx for the info.

I think the biggest question on this issue is how long these things take, thousands or millions of years. There is also the question of original sin and when it actually started, with Adam (man) or was there millions and millions of years prior to Adam of pain, suffering and death for all plants, animals, and the universe etc. These are really tough questions of which everyone has varied opinion of.

Good point. I think dinosaurs were here before man, but everything was destroyed when Satan tried to overthrow God and was thrown to earth. Then God started over, this time creating man.

[zoegirl]

FYI, zebras are considered separate species....although you raise a good point with "kinds" I have always been curious to know what taxonomic level or what genetic flexibility "kind" represented in Genesis.

YOu bring up good points about the difference between microevolution and macroevolution.