Am I a Christian?

[Byblos]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

Which goes back to the second point I made (the first being negation of free will), which is if one can prove (to themselves, no one else) that they never really believed, then what is the meaning of assurance?

[SoCalExile]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

You're trying to win an argument instead of paying attention to what I'm saying.

Perseverance is a work. Are we saved by works? No.

Plus, how do you know you will persevere? You don't. Thus how could Christ tell anyone that they have eternal life if they believe in Him? (John 3:14-18, 6:47, etc).

Did Solomon persevere? No. Was he saved? He wrote scripture, so he did have the Holy Spirit.

Could Paul logically write 2 Timothy 2:13 if our salvation depended on our perseverance? No.

So was Peter saved even though he denied Christ? Yes. John the Baptist when he doubted? Yes.

[Kurieuo]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

Which goes back to the second point I made (the first being negation of free will), which is if one can prove (to themselves, no one else) that they never really believed, then what is the meaning of assurance?

What is the meaning of assurance? Hmm. I don't know whether there needs to be meaning, that is, is the reason one believes in assurance because there is some meaning to be had by such? Maybe if one holds steadfast to this or that system of theology.

All I know is that this assurance is certainly something I feel and have. I know Byblos that you'd feel exactly the same way, assured in Christ. Further still, I know you're saved, but how? I feel it in spirit. Perhaps it's the same thing that testifies to me I'm saved and loved by God, that Christ is indeed the way, truth and life. That Christ is God. While logic and reason can be presented to a degree, there is something more that happens which establishes such facts within me.

You know, others who don't believe have told me that we Christians seem to get these "God goggles". Once we're Christians we see God almost everywhere and in everything. That's kind of true isn't it? Such I see is part of being born again, of the spirit, isn't it? We gain a perception of sorts and see many things that we perhaps didn't previously see. We get to see the "light waves" being bouncing around a bit more, rather than simply what our brain interprets and represents to us as colours. I'd argue that we have a better vantage point.

[Kurieuo]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

You're trying to win an argument instead of paying attention to what I'm saying.

Perseverance is a work. Are we saved by works? No.

Plus, how do you know you will persevere? You don't. Thus how could Christ tell anyone that they have eternal life if they believe in Him? (John 3:14-18, 6:47, etc).

Did Solomon persevere? No. Was he saved? He wrote scripture, so he did have the Holy Spirit.

Could Paul logically write 2 Timothy 2:13 if our salvation depended on our perseverance? No.

So was Peter saved even though he denied Christ? Yes. John the Baptist when he doubted? Yes.

I see no argument to be won except over what I believe.
Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.
If you suspect otherwise, ask the others here who have seen me post over the past 15 or so years. (someone please come to my aid)

[SoCalExile]

Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

[RickD]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

You're trying to win an argument instead of paying attention to what I'm saying.

Perseverance is a work. Are we saved by works? No.

Plus, how do you know you will persevere? You don't. Thus how could Christ tell anyone that they have eternal life if they believe in Him? (John 3:14-18, 6:47, etc).

Did Solomon persevere? No. Was he saved? He wrote scripture, so he did have the Holy Spirit.

Could Paul logically write 2 Timothy 2:13 if our salvation depended on our perseverance? No.

So was Peter saved even though he denied Christ? Yes. John the Baptist when he doubted? Yes.

I see no argument to be won except over what I believe.
Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.
If you suspect otherwise, ask the others here who have seen me post over the past 15 or so years. (someone please come to my aid)

Come to your aid?

I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot TULIP!

[RickD]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

Which goes back to the second point I made (the first being negation of free will), which is if one can prove (to themselves, no one else) that they never really believed, then what is the meaning of assurance?

The meaning of assurance is still the same. It's a promise from God, that all who trust Christ have eternal life.

No believie, no assurancie.

They may have thought they had God's assurance(promise), but a feeling of assurance isn't the same as assurance(promise), if one hasn't believed.

Are you conflating a feeling of assurance with assurance as a promise?

[Kurieuo]

Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.

Yet if they don't persevere, they didn't believe. Which in the practical sense, means they must persevere to be saved.

Which is the doctrine of 'Perseverance of the Saints".

You essentially acknowledge in relation to Matt 7:21-23 that such people there didn't believe.
So then, you see the importance of having belief in Christ versus some pseudo-belief/s about Christ.

To be specific, you reasoned that they really believed in themselves. Two questions here. Why is believing in one's self incompatible with belief in Christ? What distinction are you making between their beliefs in Christ, and those beliefs of a real authentic Christian?

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:

What's there to follow? I make a freely conscious decision to be separated from God and yet my decision is negated. Where's the free will in that?

Just let me answer your question with a question. Could one make a free will decision to accept Christ, without the Holy Spirit's leading?

No. That, however, does not preclude the ability to exercise one's free will to separate from God.

Byblos wrote:

Your son will always be your son, that's a fact. But your son is free to elect to leave home, never come back, and cut you off entirely. If he's not free to do so then you're negating his free will by forcing him to stay with you.

I don't disagree with any of that.

But he's still going to be my son. Always. Once born as my son, he can't be unborn.

I already affirmed that. So what? He still chose to separate himself.

To one whom has TRULY placed their faith in Christ, the assurance IS absolute! But what is not absolute or certain is whether or not they have actually done this.

Byblos wrote:

On the emphasized part, how can one be absolutely certain one has done this? More to the point, however, if they had lived their entire life assuming they were absolutely certain they had done this but discover, before their last dying breath, that they hadn't, what does that do to that assurance they supposedly had all along?

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Where does that say anything about the rejection of such? I presume your answer will be along the lines of etrenal life would not be eternal if it can be rejected. To which I go back to my main point of negating free will. In any case that would highly depend on what one believes what 'believe in the name of the Son of God' means. But then we will end up arguing about interpretation and authority (which is where Socal's last post is heading but I will get to it at some point tomorrow)

Will we have free will in heaven?

[Kurieuo]

Which all boils down to that they did not really believe in Christ, right?

You're trying to win an argument instead of paying attention to what I'm saying.

Perseverance is a work. Are we saved by works? No.

Plus, how do you know you will persevere? You don't. Thus how could Christ tell anyone that they have eternal life if they believe in Him? (John 3:14-18, 6:47, etc).

Did Solomon persevere? No. Was he saved? He wrote scripture, so he did have the Holy Spirit.

Could Paul logically write 2 Timothy 2:13 if our salvation depended on our perseverance? No.

So was Peter saved even though he denied Christ? Yes. John the Baptist when he doubted? Yes.

I see no argument to be won except over what I believe.
Again, I don't believe in perseverance. One either does or doesn't believe in Christ.
If you suspect otherwise, ask the others here who have seen me post over the past 15 or so years. (someone please come to my aid)

Come to your aid?

I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot TULIP!

TULIP? Bah! Just you wait...


btw, it's a rose!

[Nessa]

Thanks guys for all the responses.

Still feeling mixed about it

Also been thinking of the prodigal son and wondering how that all ties in with OSAS?

Didn't the father consider his son as 'dead'. And when the son came back he was then 'alive'?

[Nessa]

Found this also
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible- ... digal-son/

[Byblos]

Will we have free will in heaven?

Yes. In the presence of the beatific vision and without our fallen sinful nature we are incapable of choosing sin, no less the unforgivable sin, i.e. total separation from God.

Clearly that's not applicable to us here, even if one subscribes to the concept of two natures. Evidently the second new sinless nature just lays there in a dormant state considering we go on sinning.

[Nessa]

Also if we have two natures then that would explain how the bible says if we are born of God we cannot sin but the bible also says if we say we have no sin we are decieving ourselves.

I saw this explained that if you are born again then you can not continue in habitual sin.

But many people struggle and are ensnared with addicitons and fears. That could be considered habitual sin.


http://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin

[RickD]

Found this also
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible- ... digal-son/

The answer in that link is what I've been saying to Byblos.

I'm suing them for stealing my answer!