Are we still required to follow Mosaic law?

[PaulSacramento]

IMO, one of the key passages ( perhaps THE key one) that addresses the works that Christians should do, is the parable of the goats and sheep.
Here we have Christ addressing directly what works are He views as defining of ones faith.
The Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

IMO this is a statement on compassion without desire of compensation.
The people that did good didn't even realize that the good they were doing was directly effect Christ, they did it NOT to be saved or to impress God, but because it was right.
It is important to note what ACTS Christ does mention:
Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.

[Gman]

Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.

No one is denying that love is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. In fact you will find that feeding and caring for the poor or stranger is actually programed into the Torah.. The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied. And many of those commandments also have to do with a process known as UNIFICATION in the body of Christ. Otherwise we will throw our own guidelines into it. As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...

Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church... We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body... If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division. In other words, we will have to sacrifice our time to bring unity to the body of Christ..

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied.

G, are you saying that a believer can't know God's love without knowing the OT laws?

As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...

If Sabbath observance ended with OT Israel like I said, than this is not even an issue. I've never heard anybody in my entire life who wants to first, observe the OT Sabbath, and second, change the day to whenever they want it. Usually those who still want to hold to OT laws, are so anal about holding the laws specifically as they were written. Now since we are not under the OT law, we have the freedom to choose whatever day or days we want to worship God. Not to mention we can still worship God in everything we do in our everyday lives. Worship doesn't only happen at church. And fellowship with other believers can happen outside of church too.

Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church..

Freedom in Christ to worship on any or all days of the week is bringing confusion to the Church?

If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division.

Again, fellowship can happen anytime believers are together, not just organized church. And, who's making our own rules about fellowship? These are God's ways, through freedom in Christ.

We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body...

G, WE don't bring unity to God and the body. God has already brought unity, through Christ. You know, the whole curtain being torn at Christ's death? You are trying to attribute works to us, that God has already accomplished.

If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division.

G, by your not following each and every OT law exactly as they were supposed to be followed, you are "making up your own rules".

[PaulSacramento]

Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.

No one is denying that love is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. In fact you will find that feeding and caring for the poor or stranger is actually programed into the Torah.. The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied. And many of those commandments also have to do with a process known as UNIFICATION in the body of Christ. Otherwise we will throw our own guidelines into it. As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...

Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church... We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body... If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division. In other words, we will have to sacrifice our time to bring unity to the body of Christ..

Which is great but the fact is that unless you take ALL of the Torah and observe it as an orthodox Jew would, then you are still "picking and choosing" which parts to follow and how.

[jlay]

At the end of the day this is all about building on the wrong foundation.

[Gman]

Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked ( those in need of clothes), care for the ill, care for those in prison, care for strangers in need of shelter.
Also note that those that are judged to be unrighteous defend themselves by saying that they didn't know that that it was Christ that they were ignoring.

No one is denying that love is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. In fact you will find that feeding and caring for the poor or stranger is actually programed into the Torah.. The problem however is writing off huge sections of the Bible to a "love" that is not clearly defied. And many of those commandments also have to do with a process known as UNIFICATION in the body of Christ. Otherwise we will throw our own guidelines into it. As an example let's take the sabbath.. Bob wants the sabbath to be on Sunday because he have a golf game on Saturday. Susie doesn't want the sabbath to be on Saturday or Sunday because she has yoga class on those days. Their younger son Eric, has soccer practice on Saturday and he wants the Sabbath to be on Tuesday...

Therefore as we can see this brings a process known as CONFUSION to the Church... We do not want to bring confusion to G-d, we want to bring unity to G-d and to the body... If we all can't agree on the time for fellowship and start making up our own rules, this brings division. In other words, we will have to sacrifice our time to bring unity to the body of Christ..

Which is great but the fact is that unless you take ALL of the Torah and observe it as an orthodox Jew would, then you are still "picking and choosing" which parts to follow and how.

Again... If you say that all a person has to do is "love" and that somehow fills all the commandments. Fine.. Next question is what type of "love" are we talking about here? How about homosexual love? Christ never taught against that... Is that now somehow ok to do? You talk about caring, what if my version of love somehow is biased? What are we basing that bias on? Our own morals? You see, loving needs direction, purpose and definition otherwise we are casting it to the wind... Therefore we can use the Torah for that direction and purpose.. It's really not that hard.

[Gman]

G, are you saying that a believer can't know God's love without knowing the OT laws?

Your Bible declares in Romans 2:14-16 that a man can make laws from what he gathers naturally, and consequentially be judged against that. I would think that a person can know some "things" about G-d, but not everything about G-d.. In fact you could know scripture inside and out and have not "love" the Bible says you are nothing.. I Cor 13:1-2. So the point here is balance, knowing scripture, but also being able to practice it in love as defined by the Bible.

If Sabbath observance ended with OT Israel like I said, than this is not even an issue. I've never heard anybody in my entire life who wants to first, observe the OT Sabbath, and second, change the day to whenever they want it. Usually those who still want to hold to OT laws, are so anal about holding the laws specifically as they were written. Now since we are not under the OT law, we have the freedom to choose whatever day or days we want to worship God. Not to mention we can still worship God in everything we do in our everyday lives. Worship doesn't only happen at church. And fellowship with other believers can happen outside of church too.

Sure that's fine.. Do whatever you want to do.. If you think G-d's laws are legalistic doctrine, then fine... Make up your own stuff. Really I have never said anything against that.

IFreedom in Christ to worship on any or all days of the week is bringing confusion to the Church?

I was talking about CORPORATE worship where everyone comes together to worship as a body.. Otherwise everyone will choose their own times which brings division to the body..

IAgain, fellowship can happen anytime believers are together, not just organized church. And, who's making our own rules about fellowship? These are God's ways, through freedom in Christ.

Sure.. Like I said, then don't do it then.. But if someone wants to obey it, then we shouldn't judge against those either..

IG, WE don't bring unity to God and the body. God has already brought unity, through Christ. You know, the whole curtain being torn at Christ's death? You are trying to attribute works to us, that God has already accomplished.

I thought Christ told us to love our neighbor as recorded in the Gospels... Rick are you saying we don't have to follow that anymore because Christ has already brought unity to us? I don't understand...

IG, by your not following each and every OT law exactly as they were supposed to be followed, you are "making up your own rules".

I never said we could do all the OT laws... Some are made of women, some from priests, some are for lepers.. etc.. I don't see how someone could do them all unless they were a transsexual priest, leper, etc.. who lived in Israel.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Again... If you say that all a person has to do is "love" and that somehow fills all the commandments. Fine.. Next question is what type of "love" are we talking about here? How about homosexual love? Christ never taught against that... Is that now somehow ok to do? You talk about caring, what if my version of love somehow is biased? What are we basing that bias on? Our own morals? You see, loving needs direction, purpose and definition otherwise we are casting it to the wind... Therefore we can use the Torah for that direction and purpose.. It's really not that hard.

G, do you believe the indwelling HS leads a believer to love as God would want? Regardless of whether or not a believer has a copy of the OT?
I hope you're not saying that a believer must know the OT law in order to love God and one's neighbor.

It almost seems like you're implying that the indwelling HS can't or doesn't give a believer "direction, purpose and definition". That's not really what you're saying, is it?

[Gman]

G, do you believe the indwelling HS leads a believer to love as God would want? Regardless of whether or not a believer has a copy of the OT?
I hope you're not saying that a believer must know the OT law in order to love God and one's neighbor.

It almost seems like you're implying that the indwelling HS can't or doesn't give a believer "direction, purpose and definition". That's not really what you're saying, is it?

If the Holy Spirit is directing that person then why would they be opposed to the directions given in the Bible? Such as abstaining from homosexual love, pedophilia or fornication? There are many Christians who call themselves Christians who practice such things and claim that it is not wrong OR that G-d will forgive them anyway if they do it every time. So who is right?

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
I thought Christ told us to love our neighbor as recorded in the Gospels... Rick are you saying we don't have to follow that anymore because Christ has already brought unity to us? I don't understand...

No G. I'm just saying that we don't have to love our neighbor for the sake of unity with God and other believers. Our unity is already secure in and through Christ.

Gman wrote:
If the Holy Spirit is directing that person then why would they be opposed to the directions given in the Bible? Such as abstaining from homosexual love, pedophilia or fornication? There are many Christians who call themselves Christians who practice such things and claim that it is not wrong OR that G-d will forgive them anyway if they do it every time. So who is right?

G, assuming those that you are referring to here actually are saved and have the indwelling HS, that is a different issue. That would be an issue of that believer ignoring the conviction of the HS when they sin. How many times have you done or said something that you have been convicted by the HS about afterwards? I know it's happened a lot with me.

So, the issue is not whether a believer ignores the HS. The issue, and the question I'm asking you, is if the HS can and does guide a believer as John 14:26 says?

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And 1 Corinthians 2:12:

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

And, 1 Thessalonians 4:9:

9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

Believers are taught by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. That is living by the spirit, not by the written law.

[Gman]

G, assuming those that you are referring to here actually are saved and have the indwelling HS, that is a different issue. That would be an issue of that believer ignoring the conviction of the HS when they sin. How many times have you done or said something that you have been convicted by the HS about afterwards? I know it's happened a lot with me.

The Bible also says that we should test ourselves...

2 Corinthians 13:5-6, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you —unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Galatians 6:3-5 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load.

So, the issue is not whether a believer ignores the HS. The issue, and the question I'm asking you, is if the HS can and does guide a believer as John 14:26 says?

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And 1 Corinthians 2:12:

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

And, 1 Thessalonians 4:9:

9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

Believers are taught by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. That is living by the spirit, not by the written law.

The Holy Spirit is guiding and teaching us against what? Emotions?

Your Bible says that ALL scripture is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living.. So should we oppose the Bible too if the HS will now somehow magically do it for me?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; 17 thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

Also if what you said is true then why would Paul use G-d's laws to define what it means to covet?

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

The Bible also says to love our neighbor as ourself in Mark 12:31 and Leviticus 19:18. If we are now commanded not to follow G-d's commandments but follow the HS, should we throw away those commandments too? I don't understand...

Leviticus 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

[Gman]

Can someone please sprinkle this Holy Spirit magic fairy dust upon me? I want to attain all knowledge and not have to read and understand it...

[Kurieuo]

If my child can love me as their father, then I'm sure I can love God as my Father.

Love is not an action or actions. Actions are not love. Actions demonstrate the love that is. Even if loving actions are misdirected, they come out of a love that exists.

[RickD]

Gman wrote:
Can someone please sprinkle this Holy Spirit magic fairy dust upon me?

Sorry G, I think you'll have to call Benny Hinn for that one.

But seriously, you said a believer can't love without knowing how to love by following the OT laws. I'm saying that a believer can know how to love his neighbor, because a believer has God inside him. I'm not saying that since a believer has the HS, then he shouldn't read the bible anymore.
And I'm certainly not saying that being saved is a license to sin.

Gman wrote:
The Holy Spirit is guiding and teaching us against what? Emotions?

G, is this a real question? I don't understand your point here.

Gman wrote:
The Bible also says to love our neighbor as ourself in Mark 12:31 and Leviticus 19:18. If we are now commanded not to follow G-d's commandments but follow the HS, should we throw away those commandments too? I don't understand...

Who said we are commanded not to follow God's commandments?
G, you have the freedom as a believer to observe the sabbath if you choose to. But remember that other believers also have the freedom to choose not to follow the Sabbath.

[B. W.]

We must remember, doing is okay if the doing is not a show of one-up-man-ship to prove who loves God best.

Kureiuo stated a truth here we need to heed: They (actions) come out of a love that already exist...
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