Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:16 am
Mastermind, did you have to throw this one at me? I've struggled a lot over what I thought was Jame's direct opposition to Paul's theology, and for some months declared to people ( 
) that James doesn't belong in the Bible, and as a result of that I also declared to people that the Bible was fallible! 
But now my vision has cleared up. So I have met Mr. James! What you're talking about, though, by quoting him like that, is to say you do in fact need works plus faith to save. Do you believe this for yourself? Or were you saved solely on the basis of faith? Did you, at the moment of your confession of Christ as Lord, walk an old lady across the street? I doubt it. Here, these are some verses I put together during that time, calling them "The Contrast of James and Paul" (Paul goes first, James second):
Romans 3:28
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
Romans 4:2-5
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."
James 2:20-34,26
"But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which said, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.... For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
They seemed to clearly be contradictory to me back then, but now I understand how they go hand-in-hand. You see, you get saved by faith alone. Then after you're a new creation in Christ the inevitable result is works. If there's no works afterward, then it's proof you're not a real Christian.
Matthew 7:16-20
You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you'll recognize them by their fruit.
That's the point at which these seeming contradictions meet and make sense together. That's where we can both agree, MM. Saved by faith alone, but afterwards must come works. 2 Peter 1:5-11 backs this up also.
However, you do not rely on the works for salvation, as I already said. Relying on Christ's sacrifice, the free gift, plus your own works, for which you earn wages, is not the way of Biblical salvation. Faith first, then after receiving the Holy Spirit, works must come.
And by the way, do you align yourself with a denomination, or do you just call yourself Christian, as I do?
) that James doesn't belong in the Bible, and as a result of that I also declared to people that the Bible was fallible! But now my vision has cleared up. So I have met Mr. James! What you're talking about, though, by quoting him like that, is to say you do in fact need works plus faith to save. Do you believe this for yourself? Or were you saved solely on the basis of faith? Did you, at the moment of your confession of Christ as Lord, walk an old lady across the street? I doubt it. Here, these are some verses I put together during that time, calling them "The Contrast of James and Paul" (Paul goes first, James second):Romans 3:28
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
Romans 4:2-5
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."
James 2:20-34,26
"But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the alter? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which said, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.... For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
They seemed to clearly be contradictory to me back then, but now I understand how they go hand-in-hand. You see, you get saved by faith alone. Then after you're a new creation in Christ the inevitable result is works. If there's no works afterward, then it's proof you're not a real Christian.
Matthew 7:16-20
You'll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can't produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you'll recognize them by their fruit.
That's the point at which these seeming contradictions meet and make sense together. That's where we can both agree, MM. Saved by faith alone, but afterwards must come works. 2 Peter 1:5-11 backs this up also.
However, you do not rely on the works for salvation, as I already said. Relying on Christ's sacrifice, the free gift, plus your own works, for which you earn wages, is not the way of Biblical salvation. Faith first, then after receiving the Holy Spirit, works must come.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You make me regret not buying a Catechism yet! A lot of Catholics do worship Mary. And didn't you see all the people worshipping pope John Paul II? There's a point where it crosses from simple honor to worship. I don't think you can detect it too easily! How many of those who would die to just touch the hem of his garment would find it pure bliss to kneel before him and kiss his "ring"? This is worship. This attitude should only be held towards God. And tell me this, why do Catholic priests get called "Father"? Jesus said, "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your leader, that is, Christ." (Matthew 23:8-10) Jesus said that since we are all Brothers and Sisters in Christ, we aren't to elevate one's position above the other's. It is wrong and unbiblical to call a priest "Father." We should call him "Brother," if not just his name! I refuse to call "my pastor" "pastor Noah," I call him Noah. He is a shepherd to his Brothers and Sisters, but this does not elevate him above us; he is still just our Brother in Christ.Mastermind wrote:It doesn't. Funny enough, this verse is used to twist scripture all the time. Last time I saw it, some dude was claiming Jesus was gay. His misinterpretation is about as innacurate as yours is.
Please do so, but in a wholly appropriate way. And by the way, we are all saints who are sanctified by Christ, and we are sanctified by Christ all who are new creations because of the salvation by Him. I am a Saint. You, and hopefully most everyone else on this site, are Saints.Mastermind wrote:We recognise great leaders, great actors, great singers. Why can't they recognise great Christians?
True. And that's fine. I do the same thing with other Christians of old through whom God did many good works. He did great works through them because of their great faith.Mastermind wrote: As people read about their WORKS they realise how much faith those people had.
Funny, I don't remember saying anything of the sort! Please watch your phrasing, or I might just have to start calling you a false witness like SLP did of you and others! That really is a problem. You falsy generalized what I said through the influence of your bias. It is not what I meant at all. Let's be cut and dry here.Mastermind wrote:You are proposing that we destroy anything that might help people simply because you think everybody can just say "I have faith". It's never that simple.
And by the way, do you align yourself with a denomination, or do you just call yourself Christian, as I do?
Despite your bias and both of us getting hot under the collar I think there's no ill-will here; tell me I'm right... just to verify.
...I'm sorry I'm just as passionate about the topic as you are. There, now can I have dessert Mommy? No, I understand you. (Do I? Who can understand someone with so little understanding... I just don't understand. 
) If my passionate feelings is getting in the way, I'll try to reign them in as I've instructed others including yourself to do. But I still get to have cat-fights, right? Did people misunderstand John the Baptist when he called the Sadducees, (Pharisees? Spelling?) a "brood of vipers"? Or was misunderstanding caused by Jesus, (or someone else?) calling one of those two groups "whitewashed"? Again though, if my passion against false doctrine is clouding minds, please let me know; I'll attempt to rope the clouds and bring them back into the corral.
However I still wish to make one comment...colors, I just want to say that I'm Catholic, and I have a relationship with Christ that is evergrowing. All the 'rituals' deepen that relationship for me. 