Separation or Annihilation?

[PaulSacramento]

One must repent before they are saved.
To be judged on ones actions is just part of it, repentance is also need.
But to repent is not just to say I am sorry, it is the fully admit ones sins against others AND God, to understand and bare full consequences of those sins and very few people that are bad, truly bad (evil even) are willing to repent or even want to.

That is not what metanoia means.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)
You are putting conditions on salvation that aren't there.

We tend to try and put a "chronology" on things, including salvation. Its a human trait.
So when I say "before", what I mean is that repentance is needed by everyone who is to be saved, it is part of the process of salvation, not a condition of.
Sorry, I should be more clear.

[Jac3510]

We tend to try and put a "chronology" on things, including salvation. Its a human trait.
So when I say "before", what I mean is that repentance is needed by everyone who is to be saved, it is part of the process of salvation, not a condition of.
Sorry, I should be more clear.

John 12:42; 1 Cor. 11:28-32

On topic, in my view Scripture is clear that the torment is eternal--that is, that we are not annihilated. To compare it to a modern argument, I think there is a very good reason for that: annihilationists are making the same assumptions as pro-choice folk on the nature of life. Put differently, the same arguments that drive me to be pro-life are the same arguments that convince me that annihilationism is fundamentally immoral. To put it one final way, I do not see how one can be pro-life while also being an annihilationist.

[PaulSacramento]

We tend to try and put a "chronology" on things, including salvation. Its a human trait.
So when I say "before", what I mean is that repentance is needed by everyone who is to be saved, it is part of the process of salvation, not a condition of.
Sorry, I should be more clear.

John 12:42; 1 Cor. 11:28-32

On topic, in my view Scripture is clear that the torment is eternal--that is, that we are not annihilated. To compare it to a modern argument, I think there is a very good reason for that: annihilationists are making the same assumptions as pro-choice folk on the nature of life. Put differently, the same arguments that drive me to be pro-life are the same arguments that convince me that annihilationism is fundamentally immoral. To put it one final way, I do not see how one can be pro-life while also being an annihilationist.

You are referring to Revelation 20:10, correct? in regards to eternal torment?

[Jac3510]

That's one scriptural reference. I don't think it's the strongest argument, though, for reasons you already know. But the point of my post was to compare annihilationism to pro-choice thought. The former is wrong for exactly the same reasons as the latter is wrong.

You're also wrong on the necessity of all Christians to repent (at least, in terms of how you actually stated things, and so whatever you might have meant not withstanding).

[PaulSacramento]

That's one scriptural reference. I don't think it's the strongest argument, though, for reasons you already know. But the point of my post was to compare annihilationism to pro-choice thought. The former is wrong for exactly the same reasons as the latter is wrong.

You're also wrong on the necessity of all Christians to repent (at least, in terms of how you actually stated things, and so whatever you might have meant not withstanding).

I don't know, I mean, I think repentance is an integral part of the process no?
I mean, to believe in Christ is to believe in His sacrifice for us and his resurrection and eventual return, right?
A return for Judgment and salvation and resurrection ( in no particular order).
Repentance is important because as the HS works in us to make us "better", to help us follow the will of God, isn't part of that will for us to repent of our sins?
We don't repent to be saved, we repent because we are saved and part of the process is the "change for the better" from whatever state we are in.
Maybe I am not wording this right...

[Jac3510]

I suspect it is just your wording. It's just that wording is very important because, if put the wrong way, people can get very wrong ideas (and so my mock correction of Scripture in the other thread). So I would actually say:

1. On definition, to "repent" actually means "to change your mind" and not "to turn from sin." That is why God can be said to repent. So in some contexts, we may be said to repent from sins, but not all. If the context is (as it often is) turning from unbelief to belief, then repentance is not A condition for salvation but THE condition for salvation, since it is just synonymous with "have faith." But turning from sin is in no way necessary for final salvation from hell. As the verses I posted show, plenty of Christians live in sin and do not repent to such a degree that they die for it. And I would submit that it would not be hard for you to find sins in your own life you have not yet repented of, and I believe that when you die, there will be sins you have not repented of. None of that means that you are not saved. It means that you need a gracious Savior.

2. On getting "better"--to be a bit more precise, I think that all Christians are already perfect. We don't start out as "baby Christians" with "baby spirits" that need to "grow up," and repentance would certainly not be the means by which that happens. When we trust Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit--ALL of Him. We don't get any more or any less as we grow in our faith. What does happen is that we learn to live more and more in who we really are. The question for the believer is merely, "Are you walking by the flesh (which is imperfect) or by the Spirit (which is perfect)?" We will never do the latter perfectly in this life, but we can habituate ourselves to do so more and more, and that is what discipleship helps us to do. So even here, repentance, understood as turning from sin, is not necessary for salvation in any sense. It is, rather, what we do when we find ourselves walking by the flesh and we want to walk instead by the Spirit.

In sum, then, I would say that the mature, spiritual Christian (as opposed to the immature, carnal Christian) is one who lives a repentant life. In that sense, repentance is necessary for a fully formed Christian life. But we absolutely must separate it from our final end--heaven or hell. There is a firm distinction between discipleship and justification.

Of course, that's just what I would say based on what I understand Scripture to teach. I am right, of course, but even that is just my own opinion!

[PaulSacramento]

Well, said.
Thanks

[B. W.]

To get back on topic:

It is important to note the fellow Christians can disagree on the varied tenets of Annihilationism either for or against it because both camps are brothers and sisters in Christ. We can respect that about each other. Like Jac, I do not find the biblical text supporting annihilationism. What I do find is that annihilationist doctrine supports human emotional need to come to terms with a subject such as eternal punishment i.e. recompense and that is okay with me. I do not find fault with that at all, so be blessed, and bring many to the Lord. Amen

When discussing this topic, I like to help people come into some understanding as to why God remains true to himself, keeping his word, taking no gift, calling back, and will not deny who he is. God reveals who he is within the scripture by revealing attributes of his character and nature. For God to annihilate into a non-being state would go against who and what he is: God true to himself in all areas.

When the bible shows that the dead exist in a spiritual state in the Old Testament in either, a place of payback or paradise for the righteous, that means there is no such thing as soul sleep and all places where sleep and grave are used have other meanings due to the fact that ancient Hebrew language had only about 8000 word compared to modern English’s approx 500,000.

Biblical Hebrew had a remarkably small number of words – 8,000 at most, with 1,700 used only once as compared to modern English which has over 450,000. As a basis of comparison, French, Spanish and Arabic each have about 175,000 words. Today Modern Hebrew, which uses virtually the same alphabet as the Jews of 2,000 years ago, has about 100,000 words.

http://www.itsgila.com/tipsbibheb.htm

Therefore, within these limitations of language expression, in old Hebrew, death, grave, sleep all have varied shades of meaning and are not limited to only mean this or that in a strict one size fits all mechanical nature. It takes continuity with other portions of the bible, immediate context, idiom, culture, word picture, Hebrew root, and grammar to help grasp what the OT writers mean by these words concerning death, sleep, and grave due the limited words used to express a wide array of varied meanings of a word denoting something.

So in response to the use of Eccl 9 to support annihilationism let me post a revised old post I posted several years ago that illustrate the use of the limited ancient Hebrew language:

Eccl 9:1-6 a brief Bible study verse by verse

Ecclesiastes 9:3, This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. ESV

Notice the phrase — they go to the Dead. Now look at Ezekiel 26:20 and then note what happened in Numbers 16:32-33. The principles are clear — when one dies they do go somewhere other than the physical grave where their mortal body resides. In fact, Proverbs 9:18 also hints at this too and Proverbs 7:27 gives more clues. Ezekiel 31:17, 18 describe the principle that a multitude inhabits the realm of the dead together and are gathered there.

Ezekiel 32:18, 22, 23 - describes this part of this realm as being a round pit. Embedded within the walls are literally chamber sepulchers. Notice that ALL those that share a common offense were placed individually inside these cells but are all together in the same location in this round pit also known as sheol / hell. The folks there are not sleeping but able to speak which. This pit, is what we would call the current hell as mentioned in Job 26:5,6 and the principle in Isaiah 24:22.

These folks are gathered and reside there as Proverbs 9:18 reveals: But he knoweth not that the shades are there; that her guests are in the depths of the nether-world. JPS

Ezekiel 32 also brings about this principle of gathering and they are not sleeping either just as Ezekiel 32:21 states: someone will be speaking to those that reside there and in Ezekiel 32:31 it mentions one named Pharaoh who sees as well as can feel. A soul sleeper cannot see not feel. Seeing and feeling as well as hearing denote cognizance. This is also in line with what Job 26:5, 6 brings about how the shades (the Dead) tremble. Again note that Proverbs 7:27 described the dead residing in chambers - cheder (2315 strongs) which word meaning indicates various types of rooms, spaces, enclosures per context it is used in the bible just as Ezekiel tells of.

Therefore the place of the dead is a place where the departed leave their physical bodies behind to rot in the dirt while their shade / spiritual being is gathered with others of like mind in a holding area — a prison just as Isaiah 24:22 reveals.

So a biblical principle is established: When one dies their spirit / shade part lives on and is gathered with others of like mind and placed in cells or rooms. They are still alive and cognizant and not asleep.

Verse Five

Ecclesiastes 9:5, For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

This is the scripture most often quoted to support soul sleep and Annihilationism - the dead know nothing - is taken to mean folks must cease to exist in order to 'know nothing.' However, the context flows to verse six: Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6, ESV

This paints a word picture in this regard: those who die have no more share in the land of mortals and are cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and have no more share in it. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain along with their revived body.

Look again at Ecclesiastes 9:6 as it explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun — in other words they do not come back to this planet — this current mortal life under this sun meaning they no nothing about what goes on in mortal life anymore. The departed are forgotten by those living years, centuries, eons later on this current earth.

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what the Hebrew word picture portrayed and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. A rather hopeless and somber picture painted by the writer concerning all our works done under the sun without the Lord.

Please note that the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead involves the natural body dying and the spiritual waiting to be raised either to glorification to live with God forever without sin or everlasting contempt — recompense in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the dead, you could say, seals the deal. 1 Corinthians 15:42-58

Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment. Doing so, they mistakenly combine the two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense and or even the varied themes of annihilationism.

The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? How the bible describes when one goes to sleep with their ancestors, or the sleep of death, simply means they have passed on and now reside elsewhere with others who have passed on i.e. gather where the shades reside. The idea here of the sleep of death as a sleep to the things of mortal life and an awakening in either hell or paradise. Jesus speaks of this concept in Luke 16:16-31. Therefore to sleep with ones Fathers meant awakening in paradise for the righteous and the Pit for the unrighteous. Jesus's words alludes to this in Luke 23:43 speaking to the thief while on the cross.

The idiom of sleep often used in ancient Hebrew of sleep when referring to death meant, never awakening in this current mortal life but rather after death awakening from the sleep of mortal life into the realm of the shades. This Life is but a dream...the poets say. Also, the word used for grave is used like sleep, either a physical grave in the dust or the holding centers I mentioned above.

To sum up:

The dead will never know this current mortal life again — they will awake first to judgment and wait for the final sentencing, 2nd death. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades living out their own living nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire. Is the lake of fire literal fire or is it a metaphor. I suggest it is a metaphor to describe a living state reaping what one has sown - burning in their passions, etc and etc.

Hebrews 9:27 then it states: And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment ESV -- Notice It does not say — soul sleep but judgment. To be judge requires cognizance — not slumber and the experience of that judgment as well,

Immediately after death comes what? The word 'Judgment' translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken to a holding center, or intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till final sentence is decreed and then they go serve their sentence elsewhere.

After all, 'there is no rest/peace for the wicked!' Isa 48:22, Isa 57:21

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!' This is a true statement: the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment - 2 Peter 2:9

Now onto John 5 and few points

Look at John 5:24-29: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV

Notice that Jesus said the hour is now here when the dead will hear. How can they hear if they can't due to being in a state of non-existent bliss of soul sleep indicted by knowing nothing as Eccl 9 is taught to support it and annihilationism? Think about it...

Check Ecclesiastes 9:4 again and see how it begins to make more sense placed where it is in that text and in the light of John 5:24-29. 2 Timothy 3:16

2 Samuel 14:14

Let's look at the principle that the wise woman spoke in 2 Samuel 14:2. Her words have more prophetic depth to them than I think she may have realized but again - she was wise! In a few words she describes the basic tenants of scripture tied to solid principles found from Genesis thru Revelations.

2 Samuel 14:14, For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him NASB

Let me break it apart for you in brief:

2 Samuel 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again" NASB

Genesis 2:17 is brought out here and confirmed in Romans 5:12. Water spilled on ground signifies what the writer of Ecclesiastes laments — life is short - vanity and grasping for the wind — Ecclesiastes 8:10, 11, 12, 13 — Judgment awaits.- Ecclesiastes 8:7, 8 and Ecclesiastes 12:14 - The one who made known what happens after one dies was Jesus Christ! Read what he said on the subject and warns of and we neglect this due to human mind being offended instead of rejoicing inthe good new of Christ saving us from such living death.

2 Samuel 14:14: Yet God does not take away life NASB

This reveals the principle of God character: God is a God of the living — not the dead as Luke 20:38 uncovers and Ecclesiastes 3:11 solidifies as well as Ecclesiastes 3:14 confirms.

God does not take away life; yet, he can slay mortal life (flesh) in order to bring one into judgment -- 1 Samuel 2:6.

Since we live on in that shade / spiritual state, life is not taken away. Why — because the Gifts and callings of God are without repentance is another principle that is established here as well.

There is no such thing as annihilationism or soul sleep as these violate God's character and even dares him to deny himself to do so by promoting a 'mercy killing' which would be the ultimate form of Murder and note this: God is a God of the living not the dead and the devil is a what from the beginning - a murderer Jesus reveals. God is not a murderer desiring to have one cease to exist so he desires all to be saved yet knowing not all will. God, cannot deny himself for to deny himself would mean God ceases to to be God in existence. Yes, He could annihilate into non-being but he will not as that is not in his nature and character to do. That is a good thing. Trust me now, that is a very-very-very good thing! God is that Holy...

2 Samuel 14:14, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him NASB

God plans ways so that the banished one (a sinner) will not be cast out from him, implies what Romans 5:8, 9, 10, 11 teaches. What Jesus himself taught John 3:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 - Jesus is the fulfillment of that plan and the only way a person will not be banished away from God. If one does not enter by God's plan (the gospel) they are banished away forever from the Lord. There is a reason for this... a profound reason.

The words of this wise woman in 2 Samuel 14:2 sets forth the principle that God does not take away life (human spiritual being) but through sin mortal death comes, so does God's judgement. We in similar fashion as Absalom are tested in this life for the seeds of insurrection, yet, a turning back to God for pardon and His cleansing will restore us but so many refuse this and go ahead with living in the pride of life's insurrection instead. Jesus paid that price to escape judgment and find new life.

I posted the evidence that God does not annihilate into non-being which brings forth Jesus’ warning about avoiding Hell at all cost. If one knows they will be annihilated at some future point, then they can justify a who cares attitude to do as they so please – after all, feel nothing, seeing nothing, be nothing is a sort of peace. On the other hand – eternal recompense demonstrates there is no form of escape which conveys Jesus dire warnings on hell very well.

Yes, I know folks have a difficult time grasping this and Christian forms of annihilationism can help appease one’s conscience in this matter. If that is you, from me, that is okay: I do not brow beat you for believing in it as you are my family in Christ Jesus and we’ll share heaven together. So go in peace and know where at least I stand on this matter, respecting that, as I respect yours.

Blessing to you form…

B. W. Melvin
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[Lonewolf]

Thank you B.W., thank you for taking the time and dedication to not only put together an answer to my question, but also to fulfill your part in witnessing for Christ.

I read all of it, and I will re-read and study more on it, I'm sure.,

Having said that, I have to ask...

If as it is said, that God is Life, and there is no Life outside of Him., how then can a life "continue" in some sort of shape or form -for lack of a better term- in place spiritually separated from God?

and, how would you explain the scripture in Revelation, where it says that death will be no more?

hence, if no one dies "spiritually," then by default they still live -as some tend to believe- separated from God..

but how is that so? how can that be called life, when Life is God?

[Silvertusk]

Thing is B.W. There is too much that can be interpreted both ways - annihilation and ECT. Who is right? Why is eternal life always referred to something that is inherited and gained - not automatically given?

Here is a link that pretty much convinced me of the annihilationism view.

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... tion/6.htm


At the end of the day it is an emotional argument I agree - but a couple of other points

1) ECT does not sit at all with an all loving God.
2) ECT does not make the victory on the cross complete.

[Silvertusk]

But anyway - a moderators point - this is not a salvation issue so it makes for excellent discussion.

Silvertusk,

[B. W.]

Thank you B.W., thank you for taking the time and dedication to not only put together an answer to my question, but also to fulfill your part in witnessing for Christ.

I read all of it, and I will re-read and study more on it, I'm sure.,

Having said that, I have to ask...

If as it is said, that God is Life, and there is no Life outside of Him., how then can a life "continue" in some sort of shape or form -for lack of a better term- in place spiritually separated from God?

and, how would you explain the scripture in Revelation, where it says that death will be no more?

hence, if no one dies "spiritually," then by default they still live -as some tend to believe- separated from God..

but how is that so? how can that be called life, when Life is God?

Well the answers to your questions are amazingly simple so let’s proceed and look at each:

…how would you explain the scripture in Revelation, where it says that death will be no more?

There is a context and the context explains it in the book of Revelation. Therefore, it is there one should note the context. Let’s look at it…

Rev 21:1-3, Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

The context is made clear by whom he is speaking too: Those who are his own, next…

Rev 21:4, And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

For those inhabiting the new heaven and earth living with God – there is no more death. Things return to the good state God originally intended (Gen1:31) without any flaws, all things made perfect, complete, whole, without corruption, ruin, etc. Keep reading…

Rev 21:5-7, Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

It is clear that those spoken too concerning that there will be no more death refers to his own people. Keep reading the next verse as there is a distinction made…

Rev 21:8, But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

The second death is not cessation or annihilation but rather never ending death. Recall that the ancient Hebrew language had only 8,000 words compared to English’s 500,000. There is more than one meaning for death. In fact the Greek word translated death brings out such nuances for death as does our own English such as...

There is a living death where one is assailed in this life with dreadful thoughts of depression, gloom, and fear so much so that they live a living death.

Death in relationships / friendships, occur that bring ruin and misery and woe, so, death also reflects misery, woe, ruin, and destructive nature of lust, greed, envy, hubris pride, addictions, etc and etc bring. Heroin and Meth addicts live a living death or ruin upon their lives.

The Greek word – thánatos - translated death in the text above contain the same meanings. In the Septuagint, it is used for the Hebrew word for death as well and shows degrees of destruction, perdition, misery, woe, corruption, as well as implying both mortal death of the body and its rotting decay as well as banishment from the presence and favor of God as a living death but never as absolute extinction into a non-being state.

Death is synonymous with corruption, decay, rot, deterioration of morals, family, nations and therefore appears to be the meaning behind Rev 20;14 – death (what caused all corruption) also tossed into the Lake of fire as this is the second death – a living death those tossed in will experience. A clue to this is found in…

Rev 21:27, But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Rev 22:14-15, Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Such folks are in the Lake of fire and what it stands for as remain on the outside, banished away form God living in living death - corruption, decay, rot, deterioration, ruin of their own acts which torment them (reap what was sown) mentioned in the text of Rev 21:8, 22:15 and Gal 5:19-21 as these things they love more than all else.

Lets now look at the other parts of your questions after pointing out the context:

If as it is said, that God is Life, and there is no Life outside of Him, how then can a life "continue" in some sort of shape or form -for lack of a better term- in place spiritually separated from God?

…hence, if no one dies "spiritually," then by default they still live -as some tend to believe- separated from God.. but how is that so? how can that be called life, when Life is God?

2 Sam 14:14 – God does not take away life and henceforth a living death of misery, never ending corruption, and ruin is more than possible. We have evidence of this here in this mortal life too. An example of this is when the Apostle Paul mentions that people are dead in trespass and sins, and those dead in trespass and sins are still alive and separated from God, are they not?

Again, it goes back to note how the nuance of the word death is used in the context in scripture where it is used. So the answer to these is found in the verses cited from Revelation’s Book.
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All Bible quotes are from the NKJV

[PaulSacramento]

Well aid BW.
Many people don't realise that the death that will be no more will be for those resurrected and WITH God in His New Jerusalem.

[Starhunter]

With all texts, that seem to support an idea, every text needs to be examined first on its own merit,

Can it say this? could it mean that? what can it not mean?

Then it has to be read in the context of the surrounding verses and chapters.

Then the words should be compared to other texts using those words or phrases.

Then one can draw conclusion.

One must also have a correct understanding of English grammar.


You can 'spiritualize' anything away. For eg, "The resurrection" - it's just symbolic and spiritual
"Death" - means spiritual death and not real death
"The return of Christ" - only spiritual eyes will see Him
"Heaven" - it's just a happy place in your mind
"God said,... you will surely die" - that's just a figure of speech

Then you can do the opposite and say everything is literal - "the two witnesses" - are real fire breathing super powered people
"one is taken the other left" - one out of every two people disappears
The "fire is not quenched" - it will never burn out
"And the man cried out to Lazarus"- you can communicate to heaven from hell
"and his spirit left him" - it's a ghost with useless arms

[Starhunter]

BW,

Your thoughts on "no more death" you have applied only to those that are saved.

Which means that the wicked have life.

The trouble is anyone not found written in the book of life is destroyed.

What your idea means is that the Devil, his angels and the wicked are in the book of life.

Anyone written in that book lives forever, anyone not written in it - does not live forever.

But you are saying, "anyone not written in the book of life still lives, not just one day but forever."