I'm not sure if I believe your theory about the difference between the old Jews and the modren Jews but you are right that there is only one way to the Father and that is Jesus Christ.I am very familiar with Romans 11, that someday the Jewish people will be saved, resulting in greater blessings for the Gentiles. I don't see where this contradicts my view one bit. In order for this to happen, the Jews will foresake demonic Judaism in favor of Christianity, for...
Acts 4:12
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Do Jews Worship the Same God as the Christians do?
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FFC
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"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:30 pm
ryo dokomi wrote:
okay puritan, what is the difference between the old testament jews, and this new judaism that you speak of. i dont know what you are talking about.
Puritan wrote:
Old Testament Judaism was the true Biblical religion of that time. The way they worshipped foreshadowed the coming Messiah (temple, sacrifice, etc.) Abraham and Moses were saved by the same grace that saves modern day saints.
New Testament Judaism is a different religion altogether. There is no longer a temple or animal sacrifice (and even if there was, these things cannot atone for sin, but are "weak and beggarly elements").
Ruth:
The phrase "weak and beggarly elements" refer to pagan practices.
Galatians 4 is written to former pagan gentiles.
Ga 4:7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
Ga 4:8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods:
Ga 4:9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?
Paul said the the MC Law of Almighty God *IS* Holy and the commandments of God are Holy, just and good! How dare you say that God's Holy Word is weak and beggarly?
In Lev.16:29-30 God says, "And it shall be a statute forever unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the native-born, or the ger that sojourneth among you: for on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you;
from all your sins shall ye be clean before YHVH.
Lu 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Lu 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless.
The OT animal sacrifice system was a wonderful method of forgiveness given by a merciful, loving God. It brought sinners back from the guilt of sin to a relationship with their Heavenly Father.
It never, however, brought salvation. Salvation only came through John 3:16, belief in the Promised Seed (Gen.3), the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua. And those who believed in that promise before He came, where saved by belief in that promise. There is only One Way for everyone.
Yeshua's death was the only means of atonement for the stain of sin. We all sin and even if Yeshua forgives that sin, as He did for many while He was here on earth, we are still only forgiven sinners. We are not like Adam before the Fall. We need to be like Adam before the Fall to return to Paradise. Only Yeshua's atoning sacrifice can take away that stain of sin and make us white as snow or pure as Adam.
Yes, Abraham, Moses, Elijah and the thief on the cross are all saved by Yeshua's sacrifice.
Ruth
Puritan:
OT Judaism worshipped Christ (John 5:46). NT Judaism rejects Christ, and therefore is a false, demonic cult.
Ruth:
There is only one Judaism, the worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Peter, James, John and Paul.
Current day Judaism is called Messianic Judaism to differentiate it from the so-called "Judaism" which does not yet recognize their Messiah and are following the words of followers of the pharisees, rabbinic rabbis.
However, the "church" religions that refuse to be grafted-in to the Jewish olive tree, that call Yeshua by a greek name and give Him a greek title and deign to ever call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's Word, "weak and beggarly", may also be worshipping in a false cult.
Ruth
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ryo dokomi wrote:
okay puritan, what is the difference between the old testament jews, and this new judaism that you speak of. i dont know what you are talking about.
Puritan wrote:
Old Testament Judaism was the true Biblical religion of that time. The way they worshipped foreshadowed the coming Messiah (temple, sacrifice, etc.) Abraham and Moses were saved by the same grace that saves modern day saints.
New Testament Judaism is a different religion altogether. There is no longer a temple or animal sacrifice (and even if there was, these things cannot atone for sin, but are "weak and beggarly elements").
Ruth:
The phrase "weak and beggarly elements" refer to pagan practices.
Galatians 4 is written to former pagan gentiles.
Ga 4:7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
Ga 4:8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods:
Ga 4:9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?
Paul said the the MC Law of Almighty God *IS* Holy and the commandments of God are Holy, just and good! How dare you say that God's Holy Word is weak and beggarly?
In Lev.16:29-30 God says, "And it shall be a statute forever unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the native-born, or the ger that sojourneth among you: for on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you;
from all your sins shall ye be clean before YHVH.
Lu 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abijah: and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Lu 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless.
The OT animal sacrifice system was a wonderful method of forgiveness given by a merciful, loving God. It brought sinners back from the guilt of sin to a relationship with their Heavenly Father.
It never, however, brought salvation. Salvation only came through John 3:16, belief in the Promised Seed (Gen.3), the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua. And those who believed in that promise before He came, where saved by belief in that promise. There is only One Way for everyone.
Yeshua's death was the only means of atonement for the stain of sin. We all sin and even if Yeshua forgives that sin, as He did for many while He was here on earth, we are still only forgiven sinners. We are not like Adam before the Fall. We need to be like Adam before the Fall to return to Paradise. Only Yeshua's atoning sacrifice can take away that stain of sin and make us white as snow or pure as Adam.
Yes, Abraham, Moses, Elijah and the thief on the cross are all saved by Yeshua's sacrifice.
Ruth
Puritan:
OT Judaism worshipped Christ (John 5:46). NT Judaism rejects Christ, and therefore is a false, demonic cult.
Ruth:
There is only one Judaism, the worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Peter, James, John and Paul.
Current day Judaism is called Messianic Judaism to differentiate it from the so-called "Judaism" which does not yet recognize their Messiah and are following the words of followers of the pharisees, rabbinic rabbis.
However, the "church" religions that refuse to be grafted-in to the Jewish olive tree, that call Yeshua by a greek name and give Him a greek title and deign to ever call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's Word, "weak and beggarly", may also be worshipping in a false cult.
Ruth
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Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:40 am --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FFC wrote:
I agree. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the same God that we worship...or don't. Do you see what I mean?
Puritan wrote:
Yes. But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the god of modern Judaism. When they reject Christ, the reject Moses (John 5:46) and Abraham (John 8:56). That is an important point overlooked by most modern evangelicals. The common myth today is that Christ condemned the Pharisees for obeying the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christ condemned them because they were Christ-rejecting Judaists (John 8:39-44),
Ruth:
True but He also chastised them for adding to and subtracting from the Holy Law of God. They were making "rabbis" words higher than God's Words. They still are and they still are leading their people away from their Messiah. But now-a-days, the people have the Word of God that they can read for themselves. Now they tell them that only the rabbis can interpret that Word correctly, and to believe in "Jesus" is to be a traitor to their people who died at the hands of the "christians". Oy vey!
They say they stop being a Jew and a believer in the One God, if they find their Messiah. We must let them know that He is not a Greek god named Jesus Christ, but the Promised Jewish Messiah and King from David's line by the Name of Yeshua = YHVH saves!
Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isa 45:21 Declare ye, and bring [it] forth; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath showed this from ancient time? who hath declared it of old? have not I, YHVH? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides Me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for YHVH, [even]YHVH, is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.
How many might be saved if we declare His true Name, Yeshua, YHVH saves?
Ruth
Puritan:
a religion that too many Christians are willing to accept as a biblical religion today. Judaism is no more a biblical religion and Islam, Mormonism, etc.
Ruth:
But Paul said they are more easily grafted back in then we, if we depart from the true Messiah. It is our job to bring them back (Romans 11:11).
Ruth
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FFC wrote:
I agree. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the same God that we worship...or don't. Do you see what I mean?
Puritan wrote:
Yes. But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the god of modern Judaism. When they reject Christ, the reject Moses (John 5:46) and Abraham (John 8:56). That is an important point overlooked by most modern evangelicals. The common myth today is that Christ condemned the Pharisees for obeying the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christ condemned them because they were Christ-rejecting Judaists (John 8:39-44),
Ruth:
True but He also chastised them for adding to and subtracting from the Holy Law of God. They were making "rabbis" words higher than God's Words. They still are and they still are leading their people away from their Messiah. But now-a-days, the people have the Word of God that they can read for themselves. Now they tell them that only the rabbis can interpret that Word correctly, and to believe in "Jesus" is to be a traitor to their people who died at the hands of the "christians". Oy vey!
They say they stop being a Jew and a believer in the One God, if they find their Messiah. We must let them know that He is not a Greek god named Jesus Christ, but the Promised Jewish Messiah and King from David's line by the Name of Yeshua = YHVH saves!
Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Isa 45:21 Declare ye, and bring [it] forth; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath showed this from ancient time? who hath declared it of old? have not I, YHVH? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides Me.
Isa 45:22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for YHVH, [even]YHVH, is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.
How many might be saved if we declare His true Name, Yeshua, YHVH saves?
Ruth
Puritan:
a religion that too many Christians are willing to accept as a biblical religion today. Judaism is no more a biblical religion and Islam, Mormonism, etc.
Ruth:
But Paul said they are more easily grafted back in then we, if we depart from the true Messiah. It is our job to bring them back (Romans 11:11).
Ruth
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puritan lad
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Yes, Pagan Gentiles (Galatians) who were being led astray by Judaists commanding circumcision and obedience to Jewish ceremonial laws (Gal. 2:14-16). Paul refers to this as "a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6), and "perverted gospel" (Gal. 1:7), and pointed out how worthless his own Judaism was. (Gal. 1:13-17). This is Paul's meaning when he refers to the curse of the law (Gal. 3:10-14). He was not preaching "lawless Christianity". So yes, Judaists ceremonies are what Paul was referring to as "weak and beggarly elements".ruth wrote:The phrase "weak and beggarly elements" refer to pagan practices.
Galatians 4 is written to former pagan gentiles.
I've heard the term "Messianic Judaism" quite often, but don't really comprehend it. It is a Christian or a Judiast?ruth wrote:There is only one Judaism, the worship of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Peter, James, John and Paul.
Current day Judaism is called Messianic Judaism to differentiate it from the so-called "Judaism" which does not yet recognize their Messiah and are following the words of followers of the pharisees, rabbinic rabbis.
However, the "church" religions that refuse to be grafted-in to the Jewish olive tree, that call Yeshua by a greek name and give Him a greek title and deign to ever call the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's Word, "weak and beggarly", may also be worshipping in a false cult.
In any case, those who reject Christ are not serving the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Peter, James, John and Paul.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
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//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
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Messianic Jews are Protestant Christians. Most of their denomonations believe in everything an evangelical believes, but they celebrate old customs-not because they have to, but because it is like celebrating Christmas or Easter to them-it is tradition only.
They would not agree with preterism as they do believe futurism and the eternal covenant with Israel. They do not believe in salvation unless you embrace Yeshua/Jesus. They also are virualantly anti-Catholic as they see the Catholic Church as destroyers of the original church.
Dan
They would not agree with preterism as they do believe futurism and the eternal covenant with Israel. They do not believe in salvation unless you embrace Yeshua/Jesus. They also are virualantly anti-Catholic as they see the Catholic Church as destroyers of the original church.
Dan
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B. W.
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Thanks PL, and here is more info for anyone else on this matter…puritan lad wrote:B.W.
I am very familiar with Romans 11, that someday the Jewish people will be saved, resulting in greater blessings for the Gentiles. I don't see where this contradicts my view one bit. In order for this to happen, the Jews will foresake demonic Judaism in favor of Christianity, for...
Acts 4:12
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Peter was telling this to Judaists.
I was pointing out that modern Judaism's prominent doctrine is Torah, Torah, Torah!
Much of what they believe is summed up in Psalms 119:all. For Jews, the written and unwritten Torah is similar to the Christian concept of written biblical law and biblical case law. You can say they are people of the Book or Law. Many do not believe in the concept of heaven and hell, while some do believe in an afterlife in varied degrees.
Most look forward to the coming Messiah in the future but do not know what to look for or who He is. For many, this Messiah will establish Torah for everyone. Many Jews disagree with each other over the extent of this covering of Torah over Gentiles but it is Torah nevertheless.
Messianic Movement is far different than modern Judaism. They are Christian or Jewish Christian. Some groups of this movement have become legalistic but these are very rare groups. The majority of the Messianic Movement groups are not legalistic. They see Jesus in the symbolism of the Passover Sader and many other Jewish Holy Days and celebrate these with that in mind. They emphasize Jesus and not the Law.
Modern day Jews that retain their religion, their focus is on Torah and the 613 laws. For them the Torah is everything. The Messianic Movement's goal is to show modern day Jews Jesus from the Law and lead them to Christ. The Messianic Movement is not a Judized movement at all. It is an outreach to the Jewish Community everywhere Jews are.
Jews believe in Torah and are people of the Law and that is what has held them together for thousands of years. To reach them for Christ, you must know the Torah so Romans chapter 11 bears fruit.
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