Here's what they're destroying: A HUMAN BEING!

[Fliegender]

Oh, brother! That has zero to do with what I'm saying.

You seemed to suggest that murder and rape are on par with abortion and could be considered equivalent. So I assumed you thought I would be okay with murder and rape if these were declared legal. That’s why I said you were becoming melodramatic like Stu.

Listen, whether you like it or not, abortion is legal. A majority of the population wants the right to abort unwanted pregnancies. Legislators have agreed with their constituents. You are not going to change the status quo. Recent history has proven me right. Abortion is a personal matter.

Murder and rape have nothing to do with this topic. By bringing them up you are acting like Stu who brought up the Exodus and the Millennial Kingdom out of ...desperation?

[Stu]

What you've done is impose SECULAR rules onto everyone else. Do you not see it. Abortion and all the other secular laws are part of the atheists "religion".

You have just swapped God's laws for atheistic ones, their morals, which is a surprise........

You should re-read what you write before you post. It not possible for me to impose secular laws because I’m not an absolute monarch...! The people who decide on laws are the elected representatives of a nation.

You're not concerned whether it is the right thing to do Well then we could make stealing (as they have done in some Democrat states) legal or anything else for that matter.
No, they are not private matters, they are set out according to God's law. You obey or you are not a Christian.

You already live in a country where religion and morality are governed by the government. They have the last say.
And it's only going to get worse.

You obviously still don’t understand my position! My country doesn’t impose a religious morality on its citizens. Very few countries do that and all of them are probably not places where you would want to live...but these places do have strictly enforced anti abortion laws with severe punishments... maybe you’d like to live in Somalia after all!

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about what you support. Same thing.

You are clearly living with blinkers on.

Many of your schools teach masturbation for young children.
LGBT is taught in many US schools and it's mandatory.
Your child is a boy but plays girly dress-up, teachers are then inclined to make them transition to a girl.

The list goes on and on. Your government does impose morality issues on it's citizens you are too fast asleep in "secular land" to see it.

Your country (schools, universities, etc.) has been taken over by leftists and are imposing their morals on children. Good luck sending your Christian kid to school or university and them not coming out a raging LGBT evolution-believing freak.

[Stu]

Oh, brother! That has zero to do with what I'm saying.

You seemed to suggest that murder and rape are on par with abortion and could be considered equivalent. So I assumed you thought I would be okay with murder and rape if these were declared legal. That’s why I said you were becoming melodramatic like Stu.

Listen, whether you like it or not, abortion is legal. A majority of the population wants the right to abort unwanted pregnancies. Legislators have agreed with their constituents. You are not going to change the status quo. Recent history has proven me right. Abortion is a personal matter.

Murder and rape have nothing to do with this topic. By bringing them up you are acting like Stu who brought up the Exodus and the Millennial Kingdom out of ...desperation?

If you can't see that abortion is murder then you have been living too long in a secular society and sound more like Dawkins than a Christian.
Unbelievably you admitted it yourself - you said that the soul of the murdered baby will go to heaven. If that baby has a soul and was killed, then it was murder. Simple.

You are continually moving the goal posts, but you clearly stated your position when you said the souls go to heaven. Yet you say let it be so, because something or other about secular society and freedom of choice.

God says it is wrong. Maybe you should stop making excuses and understand that God's position is final and your OPINION doesn't override His.

For hundreds of years abortion was illegal, it should have remained that way. But it is secular-Christians like you that allowed society to become what it has because you are like many preachers who only preach the ear-tickling sermons and leave out all the fire and brimstone talk. America was slowly moulded into what is it now due to weak Christians who's mantra now is: "I don't want to upset anyone, I just want to get along with everyone."

The Bible says: "Friendship with the world, is enmity with God.' You might want to think about that.

[Fliegender]

Ah, Stu...I don’t live in the USA so you can stop telling me about American schools teaching whatever perverse ideas. The USA elected a narcissistic dimwit as President #45. That twice-impeached, four-times indicted con man is the one who promoted the repeal of Roe v. Wade for his own benefit because he was pandering to the equally-dimwit Christian audience who helped elect him. That American evangelicals would follow - and continue to follow! - a womanizing liar who doesn’t give a damn about them doesn’t say much for their political acumen. But that’s another story.

Anyway, I certainly haven’t been “moving the goalposts” as you claim during this discussion. I have always been clear:

1. Abortion is morally evil
2. Abortion is legal and it will remain legal in Western democracies *
3. Abortion is a private matter for the woman: it’s her right to decide
4. Faith and religion are private matters in Western thought and they must remain private
5. Legislation in Western democracies must not be influenced by any religion

Since you’ve accused me of supporting “murder”, I can tell that don’t understand my position at all. I’m not sure you are even able to understand.



*abortion was temporarily illegal in the USA but the right to abort is increasingly being upheld by State legislators. Poland introduced curbs on abortion but it’s still possible for women to abort if they meet certain conditions. In both these countries, a majority of the population wants freer access to abortion.

[Philip]

FlieG wrote:

1. Abortion is morally evil
2. Abortion is legal and it will remain legal in Western democracies *
3. Abortion is a private matter for the woman: it’s her right to decide
4. Faith and religion are private matters in Western thought and they must remain private
5. Legislation in Western democracies must not be influenced by any religion

It is irrelevant, from a Christian / Biblical perspective, whether abortion is legal or not! Maybe a woman has a LEGAL "right" to decide, but God says we are not to take innocent life. And that is precisely what abortion does! The idea that faith matters and beliefs must be private is a secular, unBiblical belief! Christianity would not have spread around the world if the tenants of the faith had been kept private. Scripture calls Christians to publicly stand up for right and wrong - AND we, thankfully (mostly) currently have the legal right to do so. Legislation has ALWAYS been influenced by voters in democracies. Christians and people of whatever faith have every right to support whatever laws and policies they agree with. What, only unbelievers, agnostics and atheists get to influence policies? But, ultimately, where legal, a woman can decide whether or not she wants to kill her unborn child. And many, if illegal in one place will merely travel to wherever it's legal. Or go underground. But Christians have a moral duty to do our best to influence people to choose life. BTW, I have to abide by various laws and policies I didn't vote for, but that others did - which is how a democracy works. But if a law would otherwise force Christians to go against what God says is right - well, then they should ignore the law and follow their conscience.

And the idea that supporting laws against abortion would lead to a theocracy is absurd! Before 1973, U.S. abortion on demand was illegal - didn't see a theocracy develop from nearly two centuries of such law - and we were not nearly as far into a post-Christian-influenced culture back then. But I don't get too wrapped up in political arguments - because secular politics have their limitations and pitfalls. And societal ills are not ultimately going to be solved politically - which is why Jesus didn't get immersed in political discussions. And, it's true, you can't legislate the heart and mind. But the more hearts and minds realize what abortion really is - and reject it as the horror it is - the better we'll all be. And it's being used as birth control after the fact - and yet people foam at the mouth as if it is an ultimate and necessary "right."

[Fliegender]

I know that the right to abortion is irrelevant from a biblical perspective. That isn’t the point. The vast majority of people are not Christians in the biblical sense and they want the right to abort. Legislatures across the free world have given them that right. This has been my point since the beginning but you and Stu keep bringing up God. God isn’t relevant to these people nor to their elected representatives; He’s no more relevant than the Bible. That’s a fact so get over it!

Also, a man can never become pregnant so for men abortion will forever remain a question of opinion. Your opinion plus $1 will get you a small coffee at Dunkin Donuts. So will my opinion. Perhaps an analogy with voluntary euthanasia of the terminally ill would help men understand the anguish some women can go through when faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

Now, my opinion about voluntary euthanasia is that it’s immoral and goes against God’s Will, just as abortion does. It’s the killing of a living person. However, if I were faced with extreme pain due to a terminal illness or if Alzheimer’s was slowly erasing my mind, or if an accident had totally paralyzed me, then maybe I would request my suffering to be ended. My salvation would be secure even though I might go through with this decision, just as a born-again woman’s salvation would still be secure in the event she decided on an abortion.

It’s not until you are in a dire situation that you will know how you’ll react to it. Until then, it remains ...theoretical. So you can sit there and pontificate about how abortion is a terrible sin but you will never be in a position to really understand. Abortion and voluntary euthanasia are personal matters that governments have regulated but have wisely chosen to leave up to the individual. Church and State must remain separate.

[Philip]

I know that the right to abortion is irrelevant from a biblical perspective. That isn’t the point.

But that IS my point, standing up as I think we should from GOD's point of view! As even YOU say, "It’s the killing of a living person" - and that should NEVER be easily dismissed over whatever politics of the majority. Seeing the desire to influence people away from this killing as wrong or pointless - WHY? Now, I agree, we don't live in a theocracy - notice the Apostles taught about all manner of moral issues that were directly at odds with the political opinions of the Roman rulers, and of the cruel, false religiosity of the Pharisees and Sadducees - why, because God wanted them to take a stand on moral issues - and they had NO voting power. Was it irrelevant to these groups I've mentioned - of course.

God isn’t relevant to these people nor to their elected representatives; He’s no more relevant than the Bible.

For most, that is true. But there ARE some who do believe in God, but don't really understand the gravity of what are doing - or why it's wrong - and those are the one's I'd like to influence in a positive direction.

That’s a fact so get over it!

Get over WHAT, exactly??? My responsibility is to use my Christian influence WHERE and WHEN responsible. And I EXPECT my influence to often be rejected, ignored, or met with hostility. People's RESPONSE is not my concern - because it's beyond my control (and responsibility), other than I would hope it would help sway some from aborting, to realizing these are human lives being shredded, and of what these women are doing to themselves.

It’s not until you are in a dire situation that you will know how you’ll react to it. Until then, it remains ...theoretical.

Of course, people who don't believe as I and millions of others do about abortion will likely pursue it, when faced with the pressures of unwanted. pregnancy. And I don't deny those pressures can be immense. There was a time, when I was very young, that I didn't truly understand what abortion really was doing - and I though it not a really big deal. But I do now! And part of the reason I changed my mind is due to the influences and enlightening of others who knew better. And such understandings are a key reason why many decide to go ahead and have their child - is that a BAD thing???

So you can sit there and pontificate about how abortion is a terrible sin but you will never be in a position to really understand.

Of COURSE I wouldn't understand how these women feel - but that doesn't change my Scriptural knowledge that it is morally wrong and unbelievably tragic - as this is not merely MY opinion. You think standing for morals God wants us to stand up for is "pontificating?" Dogmatic? Is GOD dogmatic about how He wants us to live? How is it that bringing God into the equation (of our personal responsibility) is so upsetting to you - as if that is a terrible thing or influence? To me, this is a strange stance for a Christian to take - and no, I'm not questioning your faith.

Not much more to add - as we just clearly disagree on this topic.

[Philip]

People often refer to abortion as a "procedure" - but that term sanitizes what the reality behind it actually is. And that reality is graphically described in the following video link, by a long-time abortionist, Dr. Levation (whom had previously performed over 1,200 abortions), in his testimony before the U.S. House Judiciary Committee. Warning! the testimony, while entirely accurate, is very difficult and unpleasant - but it reflects the reality of abortion. It's all just verbal testimony (no visuals), but one can't easily unhear it or erase it from your mind, as it is simply that shocking!

(Note: G&S forum member Nessa first posted this video about eight years ago.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZXQBhTszpU

And so what made this doctor, once an abortionist and staunch "pro-choice" supporter change? Because, at the time, he was an agnostic! But there's more to the story, as Dr. Levation and his wife discovered Christ and faith - read about it here: https://www.hli.org/resources/dr-anthony-levatino/ Dr. Levation also throws cold water on the widely asserted "abortion is necessary to save the life of mothers" - see what he says about that!

[Fliegender]

1. You can stand up for your position on abortion and I’m fine with that. You just have to accept that it’s a lost cause politically speaking. I watched the Republican debate and the candidates didn’t come out in favour of a ban on abortion because they know that would be political suicide. Political suicide! So they pandered to the pro-life and pro-choice electorate by proposing limits on when an abortion could be practiced. Only Nikki Haley had a sensible answer on abortion...I suspect because she was the only woman there.

2. People who are cultural Christians and believe in a god of their own making may be swayed by your arguments...or maybe not. You’re free to try to convince them to not abort. Jesus would likely have done the same but he wouldn’t have chewed them out like Stu did to me

3. You have to get over the fact that abortion is here to stay. Nothing you can do will change this. Or you could go around tilting at windmills like Don Quixote. Act like a zealot and your message gets lost because people see you as a fool. Remember that abortion is a personal decision, not a societal one.

4. If you can convince a woman to not abort, fine. More power to you. As I’ve said many times here, abortion is a personal matter. It’s private. You have no business ordering a woman not to abort and nor does the State. Even if the woman is your daughter, it’s out of your hands. All you can do is hope to convince an individual.

Who was it that said, “Preach the Gospel. Use words if you have to” ...? That’s probably a better approach than telling women that abortion is murdering their baby and a grievous sin.