Who Knows

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
EssentialSacrifice
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Re: Who Knows

#31

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:42 am

Storyteller:
I always think of the story of the lost sheep. Christ went out to look for, and save, the one last, lost lamb.
How much more lost can a "lamb" be than in hell? What if, just if, God goes out for that last, lost lamb?

Sorry Story, I know your heart wishes otherwise but Philip is quite correct.

Many bible verses Old and New testament attesting to it as a final destination.

You’ve heard the saying “I would rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven”? As Satan has said and they (so many) agree...
I will do it my way, I will not serve.

These are the ones who end up in hell, without reservation, without regret as those who end their earthly existence without some semblance of God and so, no direction home… and as silly as that sounds to us … the lost souls numbers, worldwide, are potentially in the billions. The lost lambs you refer to do not want to be found by the Light.

It would actually be disrespectful of the Father to influence our free will in such a manner as to this eternal decision that we have worked an entire lifetime mapping out, so as to reach that final outcome.
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#32

Post by Philip » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:12 pm

Essential: The lost lambs you refer to do not want to be found by the Light.
Agree, Essential, they do NOT! People headed to Hell typically love the idea of a heaven filled with butterflies, beautiful spaces and eternal peace, but as for submitting themselves to and loving the Lord forever, not so much! And He'll not force anyone to love Him BACK (isn't forced love an oxymoron?). But even in punishment, God's mercy provides for levels of punishment - as Revelation 20 reveals: "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. This is why the UNSAVED dead have already been found guilty, condemned, in a temporary holding space and facing an eternity without God - they are only awaiting God's courtroom and customized sentences.

Revelation 20 continues: "... and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

However metaphorical, the term "lake of fire" shows that those in temporary Hell will be sent to an eternal punishment based upon their own deeds - as for now, they only await judgment.

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Re: Who Knows

#33

Post by Storyteller » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:54 pm

It just hurts, y'know?

My dad, he was a good man, he had morals, a real gentleman. Respectful, loved his family, worked hard, adored my mum, loved us but unless he had a change of heart when he died, he's going to hell. I have a few words to say to God about that.

I discovered recently that I'm an empath (I'd heard the term but not really familiar with it) so the idea of anyone, let alone someone I love so dearly, going to hell. I wanna save them.
There is always hope, there has to be. That's what faith is, isn't it?
The one thing left in Pandoras box, maybe the thing that makes us human... hope.
(That's a thought. Hope, is it something exclusive to mankind?)

How do I reconcile that not only is it possible that I could spend eternity apart from my loved ones but that they chose it.
Maybe it's not about being with your loved ones but being with God, maybe it's so good I won't care but I just feel like, Idk, it doesn't make sense. You make this huge sacrifice for mankind, knowing how stupid we are, how arrogant and stubborn and then go "knew you'd do that"

Is it a sin to say that sometimes I'm not sure I like God?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Who Knows

#34

Post by EssentialSacrifice » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:19 pm

No Story, no one ever said your dad was going to hell. There is a place for people like your dad, and me and most people, who to a good extent, display the will of God in the form of love. He in His great Mercy will provide for the sake of love.

Love is the only thing you can take with you from, one world to the next. Anyone who elicits a response like...
My dad, he was a good man, he had morals, a real gentleman. Respectful, loved his family, worked hard, adored my mum, loved us …
This love of yours and others whom he has effected over a lifetime shows anything but a person destined for hell. That love that you profess is then the very thing that is the hope of man… our love for God first and one another and this fact of a Christian love you and others have for your dad will not escape the notice of the merciful God.

Pray for him every day, his life in eternity spent with God and his loved ones may depend on it.
Maybe it's not about being with your loved ones but being with God
you’re much closer now!
Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

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Re: Who Knows

#35

Post by Philip » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:28 am

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:19 pm
No Story, no one ever said your dad was going to hell. There is a place for people like your dad, and me and most people, who to a good extent, display the will of God in the form of love. He in His great Mercy will provide for the sake of love.

Love is the only thing you can take with you from, one world to the next. Anyone who elicits a response like...
My dad, he was a good man, he had morals, a real gentleman. Respectful, loved his family, worked hard, adored my mum, loved us …
This love of yours and others whom he has effected over a lifetime shows anything but a person destined for hell. That love that you profess is then the very thing that is the hope of man… our love for God first and one another and this fact of a Christian love you and others have for your dad will not escape the notice of the merciful God.

Pray for him every day, his life in eternity spent with God and his loved ones may depend on it.
Maybe it's not about being with your loved ones but being with God
you’re much closer now!
Not sure what Essential is saying here, but the prayers of NO one will overcome whatever a person's final response to God was before they died! As their only hope was BEFORE death - as, until then, a person still has the opportunity to embrace the Lord. Tragically, there will be many so-called "good men" in Hell. It's a matter of the will - one can either embrace God or not. And God will do everything to draw a person to Himself, short of forcing Himself upon them. But in the end, God allows each individual to make up their own mind about how they respond to the Him. So, those in Hell, while perhaps not consciously choosing eternal punishment, did, however, choose to reject God and His love, as they asserted their own will above His. And if a person doesn't ever desire and commit themself to God during their life on earth while continuously making themself their own personal, little god, then why would they want to be with God for an eternity? People send themselves to Hell - it's their choice - even if they don't realize this is what they are doing, they certainly DO know they are rejecting God!

If being a good person would be enough to satisfy God, then why did Jesus need to come? Why the Great Commission? Why the urgency noted by Paul and the Apostles?

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Re: Who Knows

#36

Post by Storyteller » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:50 am

ES.... it's been too long since we talked my friend y>:D<
You, of all the people here, always calm my fears.

I'm still questioning, still reading. Exploring...
I know that i am safe in the arms of God. I wanna make sure everybody else is too. Especially those i love.

No one knows the mind of God, right? Trust in the Holy Spirit, right?
My dad was the most important person in my life.
I just struggle, he may go to hell for not believing yet he was a good man yet it's reported Myra Hindley turned to Christianity before she died.
Now, don't get me wrong, i get that sin is sin and forgiveness is given to anyone who truly repents, it's just, i dunno, it sticks in the gullet a bit, y'know?

I realise all this could just be a test of my own faith, which is about the only thing i am sure of, would i walk away from God to go to my dad? No. That's why it hurts. But isn't that me being selfish?

I cling on to my faith, it's the only constant i have. My struggle is when more experienced Christians tell me what i believe is wrong. Not because i have a problem with being wrong, more i believe it with every atom of my soul and i honestly believe it's God.
I'm well aware i could well be wrong about some of this, all of it even but none of us know with absolute certainty anything other than Christ is our saviour.

If my dad ends up in hell then God and i will be having a serious conversation - and i mean that. He may be God but it's a two way street.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Who Knows

#37

Post by Philip » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:03 pm

There will be NO rebels against God in Heaven! And it is rebellion against God that the earth is in such disastrous shape. God simply will not accept imperfection into His Heaven - as they refused to do what He requires of them to be cleansed and acceptable in His presence. No Christian, even loving their unsaved loved ones, should want corruption or rebels to follow them into Heaven. But that doesn't mean it's not a difficult teaching to absorb, about those we love. Which is why we should encourage unsaved persons toward Christ. However God chooses to deal with a person, we must trust Him that all He does is from His unfathomable love, wisdom, and foreknowledge of all things. Why does one person find the Lord irresistible and another detestable - it's difficult to say.

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