Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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DBowling
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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#76

Post by DBowling » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am
Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#77

Post by DBowling » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:56 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:40 am
So would someone please explain to my why God would ask God whay has he forsaken himself???
Because when God the Son was crucified, he took on himself the sins of all men for all time, and became "sin for us".
Since Jesus had become sin for us, that caused a rift within God himself.

Sometimes I don't think we fully appreciate the price that God himself paid to conquer sin and death, so that those who put their faith and trust in Jesus could have everlasting life.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#78

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:52 am

And Jesus was also quoting Isiah's suffering servant for those that were hearing, or Matthew was making the connection in his writings to the Jews.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#79

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 am

Lonnie sounds like a JW, at the very least.
That said, even the JW's alter John 1:1 to be inline with their doctrine ( they at the indefinite article "a" before God in The Word was (a) God).
They also alter scripture in other places in the NT as well.

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#80

Post by Philip » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am

DBowling wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am
Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.
Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#81

Post by RickD » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 am

Lonnie wrote:
Son of God quite literally means Son of God not God...
That's just flat out, 100% false.

The title, "Son of God" in Christianity, refers to the status of Jesus, as the divine Son of God the Father.

So again, you assert something that you have no idea about.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#82

Post by DBowling » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 am
Lonnie sounds like a JW, at the very least.
You might have noticed that some of my more recent posts focused a little more on Scriptures that directly equate Jesus with Yahweh/Jehovah.
:D

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#83

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:01 pm

Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...

Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise....

what I would like to know is if Jesus was God on earth, then why , just before he gave up the ghost, did ask God why God had forsaken him??? this is just one of many verses that completely contradicts the notion that he was God...

So again I apologize for not acknowledging your point of view and had Christ not made mention of God as a separate entity I would be right along side you in your beliefs but I cannot, with a clear conscience, come to the same conclusion knowing that God first said " Behold my beloved Son, in whom I am well Pleased." and Jesus asking God why God had forsaken him...

on these two verses hangs the proof that needs to be explained how anyone could say that Jesus was God when they refute the very belief...

Yes I am open to all answers...

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#84

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:02 pm

RickD wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:14 am
Lonnie wrote:
Son of God quite literally means Son of God not God...
That's just flat out, 100% false.

The title, "Son of God" in Christianity, refers to the status of Jesus, as the divine Son of God the Father.

So again, you assert something that you have no idea about.
semantics

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#85

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:04 pm

DBowling wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:33 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 am
Lonnie sounds like a JW, at the very least.
You might have noticed that some of my more recent posts focused a little more on Scriptures that directly equate Jesus with Yahweh/Jehovah.
:D
and you might want to focus on answer the question of why would Jesus cry out asking God why he had forsaken him??? was he talking to himself???
and why do people shy away from that question entirely???

as for JW lol good one but way off.... nice try though...

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#86

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm

Philip wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am
DBowling wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am
Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.
Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#87

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:01 pm
Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...

Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise....

what I would like to know is if Jesus was God on earth, then why , just before he gave up the ghost, did ask God why God had forsaken him??? this is just one of many verses that completely contradicts the notion that he was God...

So again I apologize for not acknowledging your point of view and had Christ not made mention of God as a separate entity I would be right along side you in your beliefs but I cannot, with a clear conscience, come to the same conclusion knowing that God first said " Behold my beloved Son, in whom I am well Pleased." and Jesus asking God why God had forsaken him...

on these two verses hangs the proof that needs to be explained how anyone could say that Jesus was God when they refute the very belief...

Yes I am open to all answers...
Some say he is taking on the mantle of the Suffering Servant in Isiah, others suggest Pslam 22.
Or more correctly, Matthew is placing Jesus in the role.

As to why Jesus said it, no one can SPEAK for Jesus but why THIS verse give you doubt that Jesus and His Father shared the same naute makes NO SENSE whatsoever.
Unless you don't understand that Jesus being God, exactly like His Father is much tha same as YOU being Human, just like your Father.

Jesus being God does NOT MEAN Jesus is His Father.

Also, Jesus calling His Father God is a statement of Authority, The Father is above the Son as any Father is above any son in authority.
BUT Just like a son of a human has the same nature as his Father then Jesus, SON of GOD MUST have the same nature as The Father, how can he not ??

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#88

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm

DBowling wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:56 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:40 am
So would someone please explain to my why God would ask God whay has he forsaken himself???
Because when God the Son was crucified, he took on himself the sins of all men for all time, and became "sin for us".
Since Jesus had become sin for us, that caused a rift within God himself.

Sometimes I don't think we fully appreciate the price that God himself paid to conquer sin and death, so that those who put their faith and trust in Jesus could have everlasting life.
Good try but that doesn't explain why God would forsake himself let alone talk to himself, which is basically what it sounds like you are saying..... ok so if that caused a rift then explain this please .

Mark 3:24,25 NASB 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

rift- A fissure, crack, or opening, as in rock. and a crack is a division as is a fissure and so is an opening...

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Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#89

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:14 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm
Philip wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:02 am
DBowling wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:46 am
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:36 am
Scripture is one thing but no one has given anything other than that...
I think we are always on firmer ground when we let Scripture speak for itself.
What Scripture says about itself is much more authoritative than any interpretation that I (or anyone else for that matter) might have about Scripture.

So when Scripture explicitly says
The Word (Jesus) WAS God
There is no interpretation required on my part.

I can either accept what Scripture says about Jesus.
Or I can deny what Scripture says about Jesus.
Lonnie, the ONLY way we know specifics about God, and about Jesus - the prophecies of His birth and coming the first time, of their many fulfillments, how He says we are to live, His apostles further illuminations and living God-honoring lives - are from Scripture. And yet you don't see Scriptural answers as relevant? And, at this point, you've been told redundantly why we believe as we do. Yet you seek mere opinions (alone, independent of Scripture?) of others as helping you make up your mind about Christ. What good is Scripture if you don't accept what it plainly teaches? And many of the passages we've cited are in no way ambiguous or difficult to understand! It's not our opinions you are rejecting - it's the teachings found across Scripture that you fail to accept as true. Because our opinions are BASED upon what Scripture teaches!
ok The if Jesus was God then explain why Jesus would ask himself why he had forsaken himself???
Because Jesus was NOT HIS FATHER.

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Re: Re: Is Jesus God? And Why it Matters.

#90

Post by LonnieOwesn1973 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:17 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 pm
LonnieOwesn1973 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:01 pm
Hey I just want to apologize for a misunderstanding....

Here I am going off about not being considerate about my my views and I failed to consider the ones given...

Yes I can see where you would place Jesus and God as one but the scripture in Christs own words tells me otherwise....

what I would like to know is if Jesus was God on earth, then why , just before he gave up the ghost, did ask God why God had forsaken him??? this is just one of many verses that completely contradicts the notion that he was God...

So again I apologize for not acknowledging your point of view and had Christ not made mention of God as a separate entity I would be right along side you in your beliefs but I cannot, with a clear conscience, come to the same conclusion knowing that God first said " Behold my beloved Son, in whom I am well Pleased." and Jesus asking God why God had forsaken him...

on these two verses hangs the proof that needs to be explained how anyone could say that Jesus was God when they refute the very belief...

Yes I am open to all answers...
Some say he is taking on the mantle of the Suffering Servant in Isiah, others suggest Pslam 22.
Or more correctly, Matthew is placing Jesus in the role.

As to why Jesus said it, no one can SPEAK for Jesus but why THIS verse give you doubt that Jesus and His Father shared the same naute makes NO SENSE whatsoever.
Unless you don't understand that Jesus being God, exactly like His Father is much tha same as YOU being Human, just like your Father.

Jesus being God does NOT MEAN Jesus is His Father.

Also, Jesus calling His Father God is a statement of Authority, The Father is above the Son as any Father is above any son in authority.
BUT Just like a son of a human has the same nature as his Father then Jesus, SON of GOD MUST have the same nature as The Father, how can he not ??
Same nature... are you your father??? I am not disputing why Jesus calls him Father I am disputing the fact that there is no evidence to prove he is God...

Now you are getting into polytheistic natures and the Christian faith is Monotheistic...

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