Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Philip
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#256

Post by Philip » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:41 am

Paul: So they come from out of nowhere ?
Exactly, anchored to absolutely nothing. Intelligence cannot exist without a being for it to exist. And a material being cannot create itself. And a being is a massively complex organism - showing design in form and functionality. This means it takes massive intelligence to be able to design and produce it, AND that this did not come from the material world, as non-thinking things cannot pursue, create or have any awareness to do so. And even in the non-material world, nothing can create itself (which basic logic reveals). So, whatever this non-material intelligence was that created material things operating with vast precision and showing intelligent control of the first existing things (well before there were ANY material beings capable of having intelligence or consciousness), it had to also be eternal. So, this means that there was some massively intelligence entity in the non-material world that preceded all material things. Now, this part is logical. But that this entity is the personal God of the Bible - that takes further analysis and study, but it's not necessary to first conclude an intelligent, eternal, stunningly powerful entity that is non-material MUST exist.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#257

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:08 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:27 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:49 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am


Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?
What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?
What defines intelligence, what makes up intelligence, the traits as you put it.
Okay; then I would say no. Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist. What do you think?
So they come from out of nowhere ?
Sounds like you are acting as if consciousness and intelligence has an actual existence. Does the color blue come from nowhere? Do triangles come out of nowhere? No; these are just descriptions of things that exist. The same for intelligence and consciousness.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#258

Post by Philip » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:58 am

Ken: Sounds like you are acting as if consciousness and intelligence has an actual existence. Does the color blue come from nowhere? Do triangles come out of nowhere? No; these are just descriptions of things that exist. The same for intelligence and consciousness.
You are confusing the fact that consciousness and intelligence clearly exist, but that they are not material things - because we can see their results per how they are utilized by a being. And yet they must reside in a material being to become manifest. The color blue cannot be determined without a materially existing mind that so interprets that hue. And that hue has to be caused or created by already existing material things and conditions.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#259

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:43 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:08 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:27 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:49 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?
What defines intelligence, what makes up intelligence, the traits as you put it.
Okay; then I would say no. Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist. What do you think?
So they come from out of nowhere ?
Sounds like you are acting as if consciousness and intelligence has an actual existence. Does the color blue come from nowhere? Do triangles come out of nowhere? No; these are just descriptions of things that exist. The same for intelligence and consciousness.
What are the properties of the colour blue?
Blue is a description of the properties, unless you are suggesting that the colour blue came out of nowhere and "attached" itself to a blue ball for example.

If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#260

Post by RickD » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 am

Colors, like blue, red, yellow, etc., are adjectives that describe nouns. Intelligence is a noun. Nouns do not describe other nouns, unless it's an attributive noun, which intelligence is not.

Basic grammar.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#261

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:02 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:58 am
Ken: Sounds like you are acting as if consciousness and intelligence has an actual existence. Does the color blue come from nowhere? Do triangles come out of nowhere? No; these are just descriptions of things that exist. The same for intelligence and consciousness.
You are confusing the fact that consciousness and intelligence clearly exist, but that they are not material things - because we can see their results per how they are utilized by a being. And yet they must reside in a material being to become manifest. The color blue cannot be determined without a materially existing mind that so interprets that hue. And that hue has to be caused or created by already existing material things and conditions.
Consciousness and Intelligence do not exist by themselves, they only exist within the context of living beings; agree?
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#262

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am
If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?
Living beings.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#263

Post by Kenny » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:07 pm

RickD wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 am
Colors, like blue, red, yellow, etc., are adjectives that describe nouns. Intelligence is a noun. Nouns do not describe other nouns, unless it's an attributive noun, which intelligence is not.

Basic grammar.
Intelligent, and Conscious are adjectives that describe nouns.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#264

Post by Nicki » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:07 pm
RickD wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 am
Colors, like blue, red, yellow, etc., are adjectives that describe nouns. Intelligence is a noun. Nouns do not describe other nouns, unless it's an attributive noun, which intelligence is not.

Basic grammar.
Intelligent, and Conscious are adjectives that describe nouns.
I can kind of see where Kenny's coming from here - intelligence is just a property living beings can have; if someone's brain works well and that results in accurate and helpful communication and efficient actions (I can't think of better words!) from them, we say they're intelligent. I'm not sure what that implies for theism vs atheism though.

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#265

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am
If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?
Living beings.
So, before there were living beings, there was no intelligence?

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#266

Post by Kenny » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am
If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?
Living beings.
So, before there were living beings, there was no intelligence?
Yes.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#267

Post by Philip » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:31 am

So, Ken, if it takes intelligence to create and design a material being that has the capabilities of consciousness and intelligence, and as material beings once did not exist, then that intelligence and design had to come from something NON-material that is both intelligent and eternal. This should be obvious!

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#268

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:18 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am
If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?
Living beings.
So, before there were living beings, there was no intelligence?
Yes.
So, it came to be only when living creatures came to be?

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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#269

Post by Kenny » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 am

Philip wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:31 am
So, Ken, if it takes intelligence to create and design a material being that has the capabilities of consciousness and intelligence, and as material beings once did not exist, then that intelligence and design had to come from something NON-material that is both intelligent and eternal. This should be obvious!
Are you are assuming material beings were created and designed rather than evolved from non-intelligent materials that may have always existed?
And what is this “non-material” you speak of? Is this something that could have possibly been mixed in with the material that made up the singularity that eventually expanded in what is known as the Big Bang? IOW was non-material mixed in with that material when everything expanded?
Last edited by Kenny on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

#270

Post by Kenny » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:18 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:21 am
If intelligence is just a description of something, what is it describing?
Living beings.
So, before there were living beings, there was no intelligence?
Yes.
So, it came to be only when living creatures came to be?
Yes; only after living creatures came to be.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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