Belief in the Trinity

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Christian2
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Belief in the Trinity

Postby Christian2 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:35 am

Have any of you heard that we must believe the Father is the one true God, the Son is the one true God and the Holy Spirit is the one true God to be saved??

Is there any domination of Christianity that teaches this?

Thanks.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby PaulSacramento » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:39 pm

It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Christian2 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:52 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?


OK, we know from John 17:3, that the Father is the one true God. Verse 5 says the Messiah was before the world began, so He must be eternal.

The Word who is God was made flesh, but the Word is not the Father and the Father was not made flesh.

CARM has an article on this:

Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
by Matt Slick

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21), are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved.

Yeah, I'm confused.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Kurieuo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:33 pm

Christian2 wrote:Have any of you heard that we must believe the Father is the one true God, the Son is the one true God and the Holy Spirit is the one true God to be saved??

Is there any domination of Christianity that teaches this?

Thanks.

What does one even mean by such phrasing?

The Shema has it best in Deut 6:4, literal word-for-word translation: YHWH Elohim, YHWH One.

Elohim is plural form (as anyone with an ounce of Hebrew will know). So then, we actually have, YHWH [is] Elohim (pl.), [but] YHWH is one. A significant verse as I see.

We Christians embrace God revealing Himself personally to us as three (tri) in one (unity). OT had the first more primitive formulation as I see matters.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby PaulSacramento » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:26 am

Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?


OK, we know from John 17:3, that the Father is the one true God. Verse 5 says the Messiah was before the world began, so He must be eternal.

The Word who is God was made flesh, but the Word is not the Father and the Father was not made flesh.

CARM has an article on this:

Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
by Matt Slick

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21), are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved.

Yeah, I'm confused.



Yes, you are confused because you keep bring out points that seem to imply that Father and Son are the same person.
They are NOT the same person, they share the SAME nature.

Christ is eternal, like The father, BUT became fully human with the incarnation.
His divine nature was "reduced" ( remember that part that says "made a little lower than the angels"?) while incarnate but He became fully divine ( again) after the Resurrection.
Remember that He, Christ, was the first and the last and who else has that title?
All was created BY Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him, who else was the creator?

There is no way around the divine nature of Christ, He quite simply is GOD like His Father.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Christian2 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:26 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?


OK, we know from John 17:3, that the Father is the one true God. Verse 5 says the Messiah was before the world began, so He must be eternal.

The Word who is God was made flesh, but the Word is not the Father and the Father was not made flesh.

CARM has an article on this:

Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
by Matt Slick

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21), are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved.

Yeah, I'm confused.



Yes, you are confused because you keep bring out points that seem to imply that Father and Son are the same person.
They are NOT the same person, they share the SAME nature.

Christ is eternal, like The father, BUT became fully human with the incarnation.
His divine nature was "reduced" ( remember that part that says "made a little lower than the angels"?) while incarnate but He became fully divine ( again) after the Resurrection.
Remember that He, Christ, was the first and the last and who else has that title?
All was created BY Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him, who else was the creator?

There is no way around the divine nature of Christ, He quite simply is GOD like His Father.


OK, I know the Father and Son are not the same person.

What confuses me is the terminology used by some and your comment is a perfect example.

Jesus Christ did not exist as a man before He was born, so how can you say the Christ is eternal? It is the Word who is eternal. It is the Word that became fully human with the incarnation.

When Jesus said He was the First and Last He was referring to the Word, the second person in the Trinity.

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.

And the Word became flesh.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Byblos » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:03 am

Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?


OK, we know from John 17:3, that the Father is the one true God. Verse 5 says the Messiah was before the world began, so He must be eternal.

The Word who is God was made flesh, but the Word is not the Father and the Father was not made flesh.

CARM has an article on this:

Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
by Matt Slick

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21), are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved.

Yeah, I'm confused.



Yes, you are confused because you keep bring out points that seem to imply that Father and Son are the same person.
They are NOT the same person, they share the SAME nature.

Christ is eternal, like The father, BUT became fully human with the incarnation.
His divine nature was "reduced" ( remember that part that says "made a little lower than the angels"?) while incarnate but He became fully divine ( again) after the Resurrection.
Remember that He, Christ, was the first and the last and who else has that title?
All was created BY Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him, who else was the creator?

There is no way around the divine nature of Christ, He quite simply is GOD like His Father.


OK, I know the Father and Son are not the same person.

What confuses me is the terminology used by some and your comment is a perfect example.

Jesus Christ did not exist as a man before He was born, so how can you say the Christ is eternal? It is the Word who is eternal. It is the Word that became fully human with the incarnation.

When Jesus said He was the First and Last He was referring to the Word, the second person in the Trinity.

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.

And the Word became flesh.



There is nothing contradictory in one person having 2 natures. The Word becoming human thru the hypostatic union, being eternal according to his divine nature, dying and resurrecting according to his human nature.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Kurieuo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:56 am

Consider who walked in the garden alongside Adam and Eve (Gen 3:8). Who wrestled with Jacob? (Gen 32:24-25;28-30). Who did Moses see in the bush? (Exodus 3:2;4-6) Jesus reveals Himself incognito throughout the Mosaic scriptures on many occasions. A mysterious man, angel of the Lord, who won't reveal His name to Jacob or show His face to Moses, but is identified as God.

How is it, that God could come in such forms, does this mean God loses His identify? If not, then Christ, YHWH Elohim, neither loses His identity in coming as the Christ (Messiah) as prophesied by Moses, in Psalms, by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Micah, Zachariah, Malachi...
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby abelcainsbrother » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:09 pm

Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Christian2 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:It's a loaded question and here is why:

If Jesus is NOT God how can he save ? How can He forgive? How can He redeem ?


OK, we know from John 17:3, that the Father is the one true God. Verse 5 says the Messiah was before the world began, so He must be eternal.

The Word who is God was made flesh, but the Word is not the Father and the Father was not made flesh.

CARM has an article on this:

Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?
by Matt Slick

In one sense you do not have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, but in another sense you do. Let me explain. The Bible does not tell us that we must believe in the Trinity in order to become saved; that is, to become a Christian. On the other hand, true Christians will end up believing in the Trinity because it is the proper teaching concerning God's nature that has been revealed to us in Scripture. So, though someone may not understand the Trinity when he or she becomes a Christian, eventually he will end up believing in it because he's a Christian.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the proper biblical teaching concerning the nature of God. It is one of the defining elements of the Christian faith. The Trinity, like the deity of Christ (John 8:24; John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9), Christ's physical resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17), and justification by faith alone in Christ alone (Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Galatians 2:21), are among the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. To deny any of these is to deny what makes Christianity Christian. But, I want to make it clear that we believe these things because they are true and because the Holy Spirit who indwells Christians bears witness of truth (John 14:26; 15:26).

It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved.

Yeah, I'm confused.



Yes, you are confused because you keep bring out points that seem to imply that Father and Son are the same person.
They are NOT the same person, they share the SAME nature.

Christ is eternal, like The father, BUT became fully human with the incarnation.
His divine nature was "reduced" ( remember that part that says "made a little lower than the angels"?) while incarnate but He became fully divine ( again) after the Resurrection.
Remember that He, Christ, was the first and the last and who else has that title?
All was created BY Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him, who else was the creator?

There is no way around the divine nature of Christ, He quite simply is GOD like His Father.


OK, I know the Father and Son are not the same person.

What confuses me is the terminology used by some and your comment is a perfect example.

Jesus Christ did not exist as a man before He was born, so how can you say the Christ is eternal? It is the Word who is eternal. It is the Word that became fully human with the incarnation.

When Jesus said He was the First and Last He was referring to the Word, the second person in the Trinity.

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.

And the Word became flesh.



Would you please look up Acts 20:28 type out the entire verse on here and then tell us what it is saying?Then ask yourself if what you believe now lines up with what it is saying.Will you change your mind or ignore what it says?
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby BigHamster » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:49 am

and take note of John 8:58. Jesus stated he always existed, exists now and will always exist.

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, *I AM!*"

They were going to stone him for saying that !

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:27 am

OK, I know the Father and Son are not the same person.

What confuses me is the terminology used by some and your comment is a perfect example.

Jesus Christ did not exist as a man before He was born, so how can you say the Christ is eternal? It is the Word who is eternal. It is the Word that became fully human with the incarnation.


Ah, so your issue is that the Son of God has a different name when He is incarnate ??

The Son of God, who the writer of the GOJ calls "the Word" (logos), was/is spirit and is eternal ( there was never a time when Father and Son and HS did NOT co-exist), He became flesh and was named Jesus ( Christ to be added later after the resurrection).
After the resurrection WE still call upon THAT Name as He commanded us to do.

Not sure what your issue is what the Son of God telling us to call upon Him via the name Jesus ( or Yeshua if you prefer).

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby Christian2 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:40 am

Thanks guys.

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Re: Belief in the Trinity

Postby yorican67 » Sat May 20, 2017 9:41 pm

OK, I know the Father and Son are not the same person.

What confuses me is the terminology used by some and your comment is a perfect example.

Jesus Christ did not exist as a man before He was born, so how can you say the Christ is eternal? It is the Word who is eternal. It is the Word that became fully human with the incarnation.

When Jesus said He was the First and Last He was referring to the Word, the second person in the Trinity.

And the Word became flesh.

Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus incarnate and Jesus eternal in the title of his name. "Jesus Christ" is signifying Jesus' humanity on earth, such as him at the cross. And "Christ Jesus" signifying Jesus gloried in Heaven, such as him at the right hand of the Father. Some examples being Paul's writings:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God"... Christ was already glorified eternal in heaven when he called Paul to be an Apostle.

"Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ"... Paul is only an Apostle because of the saving work of Christ at the cross. It was through Jesus on earth that gave Paul the ability to become an Apostle.

Scripture is not confused when it comes to the nature of the Trinity or the position of Christ within the Godhead. Hmm you may need a literal translation to see the terms Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus. Love the NASB...


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