New Theological discourse happening

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B. W.
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New Theological discourse happening

Postby B. W. » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:30 am

There is a new Theological discourse happening within the modern western Church that mixes the current world views into the the gospel message: Love is redefined, acceptance of Islam viewed as a virtue, Politically correct thinking, all faiths are valid leading to heaven, etc...

...and many other things that folks would like to note down here on this thread can add to the list....

Question: how has this discourse weakened presenting the gospel message?
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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Philip » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:27 am

All of that dilutes the Gospel and/or stands in direct contradiction to it. It's like there being only one correct answer to a test question, and despite whatever other options, one insists that one of them be "ALL of the above." But a circle can't be a square, black can't be white, etc.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby B. W. » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:09 am

Philip wrote:All of that dilutes the Gospel and/or stands in direct contradiction to it. It's like there being only one correct answer to a test question, and despite whatever other options, one insists that one of them be "ALL of the above." But a circle can't be a square, black can't be white, etc.


So are you saying that the presentation of the Gospel is off these days?

Next.

Does anyone know what Christian Universities usually teach on presenting the salvation message?
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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Mazzy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:27 am

B. W. wrote:There is a new Theological discourse happening within the modern western Church that mixes the current world views into the the gospel message: Love is redefined, acceptance of Islam viewed as a virtue, Politically correct thinking, all faiths are valid leading to heaven, etc...

...and many other things that folks would like to note down here on this thread can add to the list....

Question: how has this discourse weakened presenting the gospel message?
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So many 'churches' and 'faiths' have made the gospel meaningless. It doesn't make any sense to condemn someone that has never had an opportunity to hear the gospel and become a Christian. So many people maintain it makes no sense to forgive a doubting Thomas and offer him proof of Jesus resurrection, and then condemn someone that is unable to believe in Christ that has never seen anything miraculous ever.

The discourse you speak of, in my view, is not weakening the gospel message. I think it may be the key to what revives the Gospel message in those whose heart has the law of God written on it. I believe Pope Francis is going in the right direction. Below is a link that suggests the Pope offers the discourse you appear to be talking about.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077

1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".

Perhaps the one approved by God is the one that hopes the majority of people can be covered by Jesus blood and saved.
y[-o<

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby B. W. » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:07 am

Mazzy wrote:
B. W. wrote:There is a new Theological discourse happening within the modern western Church that mixes the current world views into the the gospel message: Love is redefined, acceptance of Islam viewed as a virtue, Politically correct thinking, all faiths are valid leading to heaven, etc...

...and many other things that folks would like to note down here on this thread can add to the list....

Question: how has this discourse weakened presenting the gospel message?
-
-
-


So many 'churches' and 'faiths' have made the gospel meaningless. It doesn't make any sense to condemn someone that has never had an opportunity to hear the gospel and become a Christian. So many people maintain it makes no sense to forgive a doubting Thomas and offer him proof of Jesus resurrection, and then condemn someone that is unable to believe in Christ that has never seen anything miraculous ever.

The discourse you speak of, in my view, is not weakening the gospel message. I think it may be the key to what revives the Gospel message in those whose heart has the law of God written on it. I believe Pope Francis is going in the right direction. Below is a link that suggests the Pope offers the discourse you appear to be talking about.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077

1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".

Perhaps the one approved by God is the one that hopes the majority of people can be covered by Jesus blood and saved.
y[-o<


With all do respect Mazzy, such attitude as being presented by Pope and mirrored worldwide is in actuality pride, a pride that says, "we do not need God, I need me and alone me and what I do earns my right to Heaven because what I can do is better than what God can do."

Our works would then be superior to God's work on the cross...

Can you explain the work of the cross to us Mazzy? I would like to hear it :wave:
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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Mazzy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:08 am

B. W. wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
B. W. wrote:There is a new Theological discourse happening within the modern western Church that mixes the current world views into the the gospel message: Love is redefined, acceptance of Islam viewed as a virtue, Politically correct thinking, all faiths are valid leading to heaven, etc...

...and many other things that folks would like to note down here on this thread can add to the list....

Question: how has this discourse weakened presenting the gospel message?
-
-
-


So many 'churches' and 'faiths' have made the gospel meaningless. It doesn't make any sense to condemn someone that has never had an opportunity to hear the gospel and become a Christian. So many people maintain it makes no sense to forgive a doubting Thomas and offer him proof of Jesus resurrection, and then condemn someone that is unable to believe in Christ that has never seen anything miraculous ever.

The discourse you speak of, in my view, is not weakening the gospel message. I think it may be the key to what revives the Gospel message in those whose heart has the law of God written on it. I believe Pope Francis is going in the right direction. Below is a link that suggests the Pope offers the discourse you appear to be talking about.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077

1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".

Perhaps the one approved by God is the one that hopes the majority of people can be covered by Jesus blood and saved.
y[-o<


With all do respect Mazzy, such attitude as being presented by Pope and mirrored worldwide is in actuality pride, a pride that says, "we do not need God, I need me and alone me and what I do earns my right to Heaven because what I can do is better than what God can do."

Our works would then be superior to God's work on the cross...

Can you explain the work of the cross to us Mazzy? I would like to hear it :wave:
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I don't go to a Catholic church, just so you know. Clearly, you have a strong dislike of the Pope and appear to be judging him. Naughty naughty!! :shakehead:

The work on the cross was to suffer death for ALL men and to save ALL mankind..... See.....

1) 1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” :clap: This scripture clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth. This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God's will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell or nothingness for all eternity. Many believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.

2) Jeremiah 32:27 -- “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh, is there any thing too hard for Me?” I say, “No".

3) Romans 5:18,19 So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.

4) Matthew 18:11-14 -- “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” We must understand the value of every soul to God. We are all former “little ones,” and God does not want us to ultimately perish. Still, Jesus came to save what was lost -- all of us -- and He won’t fail.

5) 1 John 4:14 -- “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” This verse gives us a title for Jesus and His mission: Savior of the world. Will He or won’t He fulfill His title and mission? How could you or I bet against Him succeeding? He is and will be the Savior of the world -- everyone…all people…yes, really, all people. Now that’s not only good news....... that’s great news!

I'd like to all or at least most of mankind come to salvation. Others think they are special, their faith is special, you have to go to church to be saved, etc etc.

Now you tell me what you think the work on the cross means...... :wave:

1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby patrick » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:01 am

I think the major problem with this change is that it actually makes Christians seem more intolerant. Because now you have people holding beliefs incompatible with Christianity alongside Christian beliefs, so it makes it look like Christians are simply adhering to unnecessarily exclusive beliefs when really those simply are the beliefs needed to have a coherent point of view. And that shifts attention away from discussing why seemingly unfair interpretations of Scripture are actually fair, because people become even more convinced that Christians are just judgmental and narrow-minded by nature.

If there's any well-intentioned motivation for supporting this new discourse, that energy would probably be better served in simply toning down the fire-and-brimstone approach in favor of emphasizing where Christianity and other faiths do indeed have common ground.


Mazzy wrote:The work on the cross was to suffer death for ALL men and to save ALL mankind..... See.....

1) 1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” :clap: This scripture clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth. This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God's will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell or nothingness for all eternity. Many believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.


As much as I like the idea that everyone gets saved, your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4 doesn't really jive with other verses like Matthew 7:14. And I would think that God wants more for His people to freely choose to spend eternity with Him, so at the very least people who knowingly reject God would have to end up somewhere else. It's technically possible that everyone to date has, one way or another, seen the light and accepted Jesus before their demise, but an honest look at the evidence and scripture makes me think otherwise.

That said, I'm pretty sure most people here don't believe you have to go to church to be saved, so you can cross that one off your list of counterpoints.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Mazzy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:41 pm

patrick wrote:

Mazzy wrote:The work on the cross was to suffer death for ALL men and to save ALL mankind..... See.....

1) 1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” :clap: This scripture clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth. This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God's will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell or nothingness for all eternity. Many believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.


As much as I like the idea that everyone gets saved, your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4 doesn't really jive with other verses like Matthew 7:14. And I would think that God wants more for His people to freely choose to spend eternity with Him, so at the very least people who knowingly reject God would have to end up somewhere else. It's technically possible that everyone to date has, one way or another, seen the light and accepted Jesus before their demise, but an honest look at the evidence and scripture makes me think otherwise.

That said, I'm pretty sure most people here don't believe you have to go to church to be saved, so you can cross that one off your list of counterpoints.


A point atheists like to point out is that a Christian can pull scriptures to suit their view, be it liberal or exclusive or anything in between. JW's, Mormons, SDAs, the Pope etc can all pull scriptures to support their view and reason away other scriptures. The opposing views will assert that others have misinterpreted the scriptures and use their reasoning that usually rest on their own interpretation anyway as the undeniable premise.

Given I feel the above statement is the truth, I prefer to lean towards believing all those with good hearts will be saved, at least.

Depending on what you believe is meant by Jesus witnessing in between his death on the cross and the resurrection, what it means for the unrighteous to receive a resurrection etc. there appears to be plenty of room to have a change of heart before the final judgement. We don't all the details of what God has planned or what the 'sacred secret' is.

Having said all that, if I am asked by someone searching for God, I say if one is to err it should be on the side of caution. Hence I attend church and do not forsake the gathering together with other Christians (even though I don't believe we have to), I use the scriptures to engage my conscience on things that are not black and white in scripture. I always remember it is eternity with God at stake.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby thatkidakayoungguy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:21 pm

It makes us look like we don't know what we're talking about. If we can't get our basics right within the Church then we're going to lose credibility.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby abelcainsbrother » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:31 pm

I believe the biggest problem is Christians buying into a false biblical love that causes them to believe that love allows evil to run rough shod over good and it takes so many out of the battle thinking like this.We all know about love that the bible teaches about but we are also salt and light in a world of evil and we are not making an impact on the world with flawed belief that love overlooks evil and does not judge evilness because it is not showing Christ-like love. Making an impact is not going to church to hear preaching/teaching and then when out of church allowing evil to grow without much opposition to it.This is flawed teaching that causes the church to allow evil to run rough shod in our world without any opposition.It is sad to see evil running rough-shod over good and to see Christians are not taking a stand against it because of love.I believe things are changing though in the west and people have woken up and they no longer want to allow evil to run rough-shod over good.They have had enough of it and they are finally taking a stand against it. It was Christianity that gave us the freedom we had in the west and yet we allowed evil to take much of our freedoms away and have sat back and allowed it and now it is even harder to take a stand,but people are now and it is about time. Yes,there will always be evil in our world but as long as there are Christians in the world their goal should be to see that good prevails over evil as much as possible.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Mazzy » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:36 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:I believe the biggest problem is Christians buying into a false biblical love that causes them to believe that love allows evil to run rough shod over good and it takes so many out of the battle thinking like this.We all know about love that the bible teaches about but we are also salt and light in a world of evil and we are not making an impact on the world with flawed belief that love overlooks evil and does not judge evilness because it is not showing Christ-like love. Making an impact is not going to church to hear preaching/teaching and then when out of church allowing evil to grow without much opposition to it.This is flawed teaching that causes the church to allow evil to run rough shod in our world without any opposition.It is sad to see evil running rough-shod over good and to see Christians are not taking a stand against it because of love.I believe things are changing though in the west and people have woken up and they no longer want to allow evil to run rough-shod over good.They have had enough of it and they are finally taking a stand against it. It was Christianity that gave us the freedom we had in the west and yet we allowed evil to take much of our freedoms away and have sat back and allowed it and now it is even harder to take a stand,but people are now and it is about time. Yes,there will always be evil in our world but as long as there are Christians in the world their goal should be to see that good prevails over evil as much as possible.


Churches are groups of people as are Mosques, temples and any other religious building. The priests and Ministers are not the congregation of God. Just because a person does not align with a particular faith or attend a church does not make them better, wiser, more able to please God or less of a sinner than a church goer. If one starts to think they are 'better' than another, I'd say that Christian is in spiritual trouble.

I also think things are changing for the better in a lot of cases, but not all. People are sick of religion of any sort.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby B. W. » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:22 am

patrick wrote:I think the major problem with this change is that it actually makes Christians seem more intolerant. Because now you have people holding beliefs incompatible with Christianity alongside Christian beliefs, so it makes it look like Christians are simply adhering to unnecessarily exclusive beliefs when really those simply are the beliefs needed to have a coherent point of view. And that shifts attention away from discussing why seemingly unfair interpretations of Scripture are actually fair, because people become even more convinced that Christians are just judgmental and narrow-minded by nature.

If there's any well-intentioned motivation for supporting this new discourse, that energy would probably be better served in simply toning down the fire-and-brimstone approach in favor of emphasizing where Christianity and other faiths do indeed have common ground.


What common ground?

Jesus himself these things:

John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." NKjV

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." NKJV

and this:

Acts 4:12, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." NKJV

Jesus was very narrow minded as well as warned of eternal recompense more often than taught on heaven too.

nevertheless, You did make a good point as to why the gospel has be weakened by human beings: human wisdom and reason is wiser than God's wisdom.

After all God tests the heart: Psalms 7:9
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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby Philip » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:49 am

As there is only ONE real God - the God of Scripture - then all these other gods people believe in and follow are not only false gods, but those gods don't even EXIST! So, while those sincerely believing other faiths are often sincere and devout - WHAT they are sincere and devout about is how their faith, which revolves around a non-existent god, is supposedly able to achieve some promised afterlife, or many rebirths before or whatever. But as their gods don't even exist, then the routes to their afterlife are all built around differing false beliefs - and so the route doesn't exist either. And the ONLY true God, Yahweh, has repeatedly revealed that there is only one way to God and Heaven: FAITH IN JESUS. Period!!! All else is fantasy that misleads away from the true God and what He wants for us: Faith in Christ/an eternity with Him.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby PaulSacramento » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am

Personally, I do think these "other gods" do exist, these false gods that have "revealed" to some these false "gospels".
The "angel" that gave Mohammed his vision or the angel that gave Joseph smith his vision, were not angels of Our Lord, of God, but false "gods" or angles that work for these false gods.

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Re: New Theological discourse happening

Postby B. W. » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:16 am

Mazzy wrote:I don't go to a Catholic church, just so you know. Clearly, you have a strong dislike of the Pope and appear to be judging him. Naughty naughty!! :shakehead:

The work on the cross was to suffer death for ALL men and to save ALL mankind..... See.....

1) 1 Timothy 2:4 -- “[God our Savior] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” :clap: This scripture clearly spells out God’s will. Other Bible versions say that God wants, desires and wishes that all people be saved and come to the truth.

This verse completely supports universalism, no matter what word you use to describe God's will, so I don’t really have to explain it. It puts the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of those who say Jesus will cast the defiant into hell or nothingness for all eternity. Many believe God wants to save all people, but for some reason is unwilling or unable to do it. I want to hear their reasons why the all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, Almighty Creator of all mankind can’t get what He wants.

2) Jeremiah 32:27 -- “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh, is there any thing too hard for Me?” I say, “No".

3) Romans 5:18,19 So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.

4) Matthew 18:11-14 -- “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and go into the mountains, and seek that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.” We must understand the value of every soul to God. We are all former “little ones,” and God does not want us to ultimately perish. Still, Jesus came to save what was lost -- all of us -- and He won’t fail.

5) 1 John 4:14 -- “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” This verse gives us a title for Jesus and His mission: Savior of the world. Will He or won’t He fulfill His title and mission? How could you or I bet against Him succeeding? He is and will be the Savior of the world -- everyone…all people…yes, really, all people. Now that’s not only good news....... that’s great news!

I'd like to all or at least most of mankind come to salvation. Others think they are special, their faith is special, you have to go to church to be saved, etc etc.

Now you tell me what you think the work on the cross means...... :wave:

1 Corinthians 11:19 "But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval will be recognized!".


First off, Here is my response to you, Mazzy, and to those who read this regarding your view of universalism…

Jesus said in Mat 25:46... "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1 John 5:11,12, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." NKJV

Luke 16:26, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

John 5:29 and 2 Thess 1:9 say what to us?

and add these verses as well: Rev 14:10-11, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8

The bible does not support universalism, period.

2 Peter 3:16 mention scripture twisting and that is what universalism is based upon....

Again, such twisting exhibits how human beings exalt their reason and wisdom far above God's in such manner that cries out, God must perform to our liking and if not, He is not worthy of me...

Universal fails to uncover what defiles a person. It is out of the heart that defiles a person and thus the fruits of sin manifest.

Next, what is the Gospel message of the cross and resurrection?

The Gospel: 1'st reveals what defiles the human heart. Our reasoning and wisdom...for example exposed

Matthew 26:3,4,14,15,16,45-50 reveals the human hearts defilement: The religious leaders plotted to take Jesus by trickery, using the scriptures against him, in order to silence Jesus. Next, Judas sold out his love for money, and acceptance, as means of providing redemption and thus betrayed not only Jesus but also his friends.

How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God? Who have you betrayed? What have you sold yourself out too. How have you twisted the Scriptures, or country’s laws, or public opinion, or moral reasoning to get what one wants for his or her redemption? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matthew 26:56, they forsook Jesus - abandoned him... How do we do the same today to others, our selves, and even God? Who have you abandoned? Have you been abandoned if so how does that justify continuing abandoning? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 26:57,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66 How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God, put on show trial, put people on trial in our minds based on false evidence, what was the result? Ever sought revenge just because imagined they were wrong when they were not? What relationships have we slain? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 26:67,68 Jesus was mocked, spat on with contempt, was beaten, demanded to perform for one’s entertainment. How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 26:69-75, How many of us deny knowing someone or that we did not know or see something we did, pass the buck? How do we do the same today to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 27:1,2,11,12,13,14,15 Jesus was taken before the legal court, or public opinion, our even within our own minds to be silenced... How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 27:16-26, Despite warnings from dreams and many ways God reveals the reality of himself, how often do we all in some way trade the ways of God for the bad to be free within us, unchecked, ungoverned? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 27:27-31, Jesus was stripped, mocked, beaten, made to wear a crown of thrones – made to wear a mark, a label to be seen by all. How do we do the same today in various ways and means to others, ourselves, and even God? Whom have we marked, beaten with words, made fun of? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Ah, when I preach the gospel, this is called offensive!

Matt 27:32,33, How have we placed heavy burdens on others that they could not carry? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 27:35-40 How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? Steal, divide, exploit, accuse? None of us are innocent, no not one...

Matt 27:41,42.43 How do we do the same today in various ways to others, ourselves, and even God? None of us are innocent, no not one...

So Mazzy and others, you want to claim universalism or public opinion need to shape and change the gospel message is true; that people are basically good and it does not matter what one believes as all make it to heaven? Good deeds earn all a right to heaven?

Jesus, upon the cross said this in Luke 23:34, "Father forgive them for the no not what they do..."

Ever asked the question who the "them" are Jesus referred too? Context goes on to show who the the "them" are in Luke 23:39,40,41,42,43. The them that awake to their need of the savior, Jesus Christ, God manifest in human form, to take away our defilement that is the root of all sins. Two thieves. One died cursing Christ. No mention of him in Paradise. One accepted who Jesus really is, came to his senses, all openly so too, and went to paradise with Jesus.

Universalism is not true, neither is that all religions have something in common, no matter how one tries to attempt to reason these things as so, it exposes something in the human heart...

Jer 17:9,10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (twisting and turning things); Who can know it? 10, I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings." NKJV

Jesus said in John 3:14-21 what?

God is without sin. The only way the Father could place sin's defilement upon Jesus is by the hands of men and women as the OT Law clearly points out on the transfer of sins by means of confession upon the sacrifice.

While hanging upon the cross Jesus paid our sin debt in full, in our place, and the wrath of God too for what we do to each other ourselves and to him. Ever saw that?

Look at the whole cross, not flavored parts to make yourself look good. None of us are that good and all of us sinned and fallen away from God. All need a savior...

However, only those that are awakened, ie drawn, to see their defiling ways and thus accepting his sacrifice will be saved. While other will reject it completely and thus:

Jesus said in Mat 25:46... "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1 John 5:11,12, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." NKJV

Luke 16:26, "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."

John 5:29… and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
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2Th 1:8,9, …in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power…

God made the awakening simple, Faith in the grace of His ever kind deed…

Are you really saved by Jesus Christ or is your faith in your ideas in a god of your own making?

All that is required to be saved is faith in God’s grace – everything upon that cross – to expose what defiles humanity and creates sin that separates us from God.

A simple decision to pray a simple prayer all that is all that is needed to heal the human condition: "Heavenly Father forgive me, I a sinner who is defiled, clean me up, forgive me of this shame, make me born again of your Holy Spirit to change my heart, the rest of my days, I am yours, wholly yours. In Jesus’ name amen…"

From here one is raised and resurrected into the new life God alone gives through the Holy Spirit who indwells his people to transform them out of darkness into the light of God. Place your faith in these things, not human reason and wisdom. Let Him indwell and change your life for the better. Get to know who he is in deep living fellowship. Amen…

God came to give us a warm embrace and in return we nailed him to the cross as reveled by how we justify treating others, ourselves, and God. That is what we need forgiveness for. Will you come to Christ and accept what he did for you to save you from yourself?

God's great love was not shown because we are so good, nice, sweet, worthy of being saved. It was shown to draw folks out from and way from what defiles us so a few folks can return to the Lord and discover God's original plan for Human beings. He saved us because of who he is, not because of who we really are. His love was not shown to win public approval, but rather change our very lives away from defilement.

All the other world’s religions shout: God do it our way, look what we can do, our ways are superior to yours, you can't judge us as we are victims, I can earn it all by myself, our human wisdom and ways are superior and you must bow to them God because you love and you would be mean if you don't, and the worst: I do this good, this incantation, spell, good deeds and you will do this for me. All other world’s religions leave you in charge calling the shots.

Christianity says surrender to the Lord, give him your heart, for he died in our place to remove our transgressions and rebellion, he is trustworthy and real, and you can return to him and know him. Just call up him becoming born again... In other words, a simple choice, when before you had none. The others, offer no free choice…

The modern gospel no longer says this in any great degree because so much of it seeks to please public opinion with a Gospel of no power and no life. Trading it for a falling away instead...


By Bryan W Melvin
All Rights reserved
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys


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