End times prophecy checklist...

[EssentialSacrifice]

see pm to you 1 instant ago brother man

[Byblos]

And if that is the case, it detracts from His narrow path. Why do it? Stumbling blocks are being put up, barriers between our way to Him and His way to Him. It's illogical. That's where I'm coming from.

That is a charge leveled only by non-Catholics. My experience and personal observation over the years has been the exact opposite, Mary leading new believers to her Son (and current believers closer to Him than ever).

Do you remember Sunday mass Mallz? Serious question. Sunday mass is the focal point of a Catholic's life. Do you remember what the focal point of the mass is? I'm sure you do remember but for the benefit of others, the mass in its ENTIRETY is devoted to Christ. Not only to Him but also to the fact that He is present among us (in the blessed Eucharist). The culmination of the mass is to receive communion.

Another question, do you remember how many times Mary is mentioned during mass? I go to traditional Latin mass in an Italian church. Mary is mentioned once and the context is this:

I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

So to summarize all this nonsense about Mary, the solemnest part of a Catholic's life is Christ where we ask his Mother to pray for us. Exactly what I've been saying in pages now. What people do or practice outside of mass is just that, irrelevant.

[Storyteller]

Thisis great guys

Mallz, please do start another thread, I'm interested

[EssentialSacrifice]

Okay, re reading this thread and thinking things through.

I am happy to refer to, and think of, Mary as the Mother of God.

… imo, this is good

Some thoughts though.. was she really a virgin?

A case can be made biblically, Luke 1:27 Luke 1:34 Isaiah 7:14

I have always said Christ was borne of Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit but what di I really mean by that? Marys egg and what? Was Christ conceived through egg and sperm or through some miracle?

Unknown how the event took place. I opt for miracle because in some way God “infused?” “endowed?” … Mary with absolute Holiness. And it seems to me she would need preparing for that.

Not sure if I see Mary as sinless but it doesn’t matter to me, not really. If anything Mary being a sinner too makes sense to me.

I hope the longer you look the more obvious it becomes how wonderfully fitting it is for Mary to be without sin. I simply do not see how, again, the absolute holiness, the essence or very nature of God comes in contact with a sinful human and that human survives. And if her DNA, passed on to her son were sinful, so then would be her son's, and I in know way will confer sin upon the Christ.

I dont have a problem with Mary being as prominent as she is either, I see it as an additional way of growing closer to Christ. Christ is first, always.

Imo, perfection

Still researching and thinking about the saints, praying to them (and Mary), again, my thoughts and prayers are to Christ but I wouldn’t discount the possibility of help.

And that's all it really is Annette, just another path to help along our journey. These loved ones are experiencing God as something we have yet to, so without knowing their actaul capacities, it should be assumed because they are in a place of God's choosing they are surrounded by love and will respond in a loving way.

[Byblos]

I have always said Christ was borne of Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit but what di I really mean by that? Marys egg and what? Was Christ conceived through egg and sperm or through some miracle?

I'm not sure who said this but this also goes to the heart of Mary's perpetual virginity and why it must be so. Mary was betrothed to Joseph, yes, for obvious reasons. But she bore a child, by other than Joseph. It was obviously a miraculous conception but that's not the point I'm trying to make, the point is that the child was not Joseph's, though he claimed him as his, lest he and Mary be ostracized, or worse.

But what exactly does that mean when we say Mary bore a child by the Holy Spirit? In the most humbling biblical sense it means Mary is betrothed to the Holy Spirit. And what would you call a woman who conceives by more than one source? You guessed it, either a polygamist or an adulterer. Not a fitting image for the mother of God. Hence her perpetual virginity.

[Mallz]

That is a charge leveled only by non-Catholics. My experience and personal observation over the years has been the exact opposite, Mary leading new believers to her Son (and current believers closer to Him than ever).

I have seen this too. And in mass. And it confuses me.

Do you remember Sunday mass Mallz? Serious question. Sunday mass is the focal point of a Catholic's life. Do you remember what the focal point of the mass is? I'm sure you do remember but for the benefit of others, the mass in its ENTIRETY is devoted to Christ. Not only to Him but also to the fact that He is present among us (in the blessed Eucharist). The culmination of the mass is to receive communion.

Yes, I do. I know it is all about Christ. I won't say a focal is Mary or any other 'saint'. I also remember the masses to be dead and empty, spiritually. I've been to Latin masses, too. I actually prefer mass at monasteries, particularly the Mt. Angel Abbey. Ice would love them, the chanting is up his alley and it's great.

I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Just left this in. As soon as I read the second word I finished it quickly in my head.

So to summarize all this nonsense about Mary, the solemnest part of a Catholic's life is Christ where we ask his Mother to pray for us. Exactly what I've been saying in pages now. What people do or practice outside of mass is just that, irrelevant.

Where is where the focus is now off Him. If that were even plausible. And do you see that omniscience is being ascribed to her?

But what exactly does that mean when we say Mary bore a child by the Holy Spirit? In the most humbling biblical sense it means Mary is betrothed to the Holy Spirit. And what would you call a woman who conceives by more than one source? You guessed it, either a polygamist or an adulterer. Not a fitting image for the mother of God. Hence her perpetual virginity.

I'm betrothed to YHWH. So are you. I've decided to be a eunich. Are you married? Are you an adulterer? If not married, is everyone who is an adulterer, then? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Byblos]

But what exactly does that mean when we say Mary bore a child by the Holy Spirit? In the most humbling biblical sense it means Mary is betrothed to the Holy Spirit. And what would you call a woman who conceives by more than one source? You guessed it, either a polygamist or an adulterer. Not a fitting image for the mother of God. Hence her perpetual virginity.

I'm betrothed to YHWH. So are you. I've decided to be a eunich. Are you married? Are you an adulterer? If not married, is everyone who is an adulterer, then? Doesn't make sense to me.

And how many of us actually, physically bore God the Son? Only one.

[Byblos]

Do you remember Sunday mass Mallz? Serious question. Sunday mass is the focal point of a Catholic's life. Do you remember what the focal point of the mass is? I'm sure you do remember but for the benefit of others, the mass in its ENTIRETY is devoted to Christ. Not only to Him but also to the fact that He is present among us (in the blessed Eucharist). The culmination of the mass is to receive communion.

Yes, I do. I know it is all about Christ. I won't say a focal is Mary or any other 'saint'. I also remember the masses to be dead and empty, spiritually. I've been to Latin masses, too. I actually prefer mass at monasteries, particularly the Mt. Angel Abbey. Ice would love them, the chanting is up his alley and it's great.

I just wanted to also address the underlined. I've been to many, many different churches from Eastern Catholic to Latin, Roman, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and never, ever was there an experience of spiritual emptiness. To the contrary, mass is full of symbolism and deep, spiritual meaning, with both OT and NT scriptures read, the most beautiful hymns sung, concluding in the most spiritually satisfying end with receiving the Eucharist who is Christ Himself. I don't know about you but that's not emptiness, that's spiritual overflow. But we all take what we want to look for I guess.

[Mallz]

And how many of us actually, physically bore God the Son? Only one.

Mary was called to partake in the divine nature in a very special way. So special only one human gets it.

So?

I just wanted to also address the underlined. I've been to many, many different churches from Eastern Catholic to Latin, Roman, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and never, ever was there an experience of spiritual emptiness. To the contrary, mass is full of symbolism and deep, spiritual meaning, with both OT and NT scriptures read, the most beautiful hymns sung, concluding in the most spiritually satisfying end with receiving the Eucharist who is Christ Himself. I don't know about you but that's not emptiness, that's spiritual overflow. But we all take what we want to look for I guess.

I see light in mass. I see sparks. I see much more emptiness. I don't look for anything but Him. I react. I feel. I test. Who am I but nothing? My care is Him. And some of my happiest moments were in rebuke with truth. Refinement through fire. Enlightenment through grace. I don't hold a grudge to the catholic church even if I come off that way. I just can't stand unrighteousness to any degree (even my own). Which is why I'm willing to talk with you. Maybe we'll both get refined.

[Byblos]

And how many of us actually, physically bore God the Son? Only one.

Mary was called to partake in the divine nature in a very special way. So special only one human gets it.

So?

So you don't see a difference between the masses and a single person who was chosen by God from before creation?

I just wanted to also address the underlined. I've been to many, many different churches from Eastern Catholic to Latin, Roman, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and never, ever was there an experience of spiritual emptiness. To the contrary, mass is full of symbolism and deep, spiritual meaning, with both OT and NT scriptures read, the most beautiful hymns sung, concluding in the most spiritually satisfying end with receiving the Eucharist who is Christ Himself. I don't know about you but that's not emptiness, that's spiritual overflow. But we all take what we want to look for I guess.

I see light in mass. I see sparks. I see much more emptiness. I don't look for anything but Him. I react. I feel. I test. Who am I but nothing? My care is Him. And some of my happiest moments were in rebuke with truth. Refinement through fire. Enlightenment through grace.

Like I said, to each his own.

I don't hold a grudge to the catholic church even if I come off that way. I just can't stand unrighteousness to any degree (even my own). Which is why I'm willing to talk with you. Maybe we'll both get refined.

Unrighteousness is evidently also in the eye of the beholder. And I welcome honest discourse no matter the level of disagreement. That we'll both get refined, of that I have no doubt.

[SoCalExile]

SoCal:
Now go read Romans 7:19 where Paul makes thw admission that he practices (present tense) sin.

Romans 6-8 is the relationship a born-again Christian should have with their two natures. Ot does not say we are sinless, that contradicts Romans 3 and 1 John 1:8,10; plus the issues within the churches as Corinth, Galatia and elsewhere.

Remember Romans 14:23

i'm sorry man, we just seem to be talking past one another... i'm not sure how this last post responds to grace = sinless

Remember Romans 14:13
Let us cease, then, to lay down rules for one another, and make this rule for ourselves instead, not to trip up or entangle a brother’s conscience.

... and that goes for all of us :amen:

First, those two verses destroy the "grace=sinless" argument. If you read Romans, we are counted as righteous via faith, we aren't actually righteous of ourselves.

Second, you should pull the plank out of your own eye first.

[Byblos]

What's with the hostility?

[EssentialSacrifice]

Second, you should pull the plank out of your own eye first

i am absolutely clueless why you would write this ... but your obviously upset and truly, i've had enough.

[Storyteller]

Guys...

Please, dont let it get heated.

[SoCalExile]

BTW the Ark is a picture of Christ from one end to another: