Read Romans chapter 5 through 8
Your reply is way off the scripture. What I said, the bible does say.
Romans states there was sin before the law. So what is sin? It is to do what is outside the perfect will of God. What is the perfect will of God. The law.
The law is a revelation of God. Abrahams faith in God is what saved him(he was saved even before he was curcumsised [before he commited any act of belief],) just as our faith in God is what saves us. Abraham was saved not by any act but faith.
We can act on faith but those actions do not save us. They simply testify to the Spirit of God in us. Just as Christians. Our actions are in union with Gods perfectness by act of the Holy Spirit in our lives but the flesh still wars against the perfectness of God.
As for if a person rapes my family and such, you suggest I must believe there was no sin. Sin must be defined properly. Sin is not just transgression of the law it is any act outside the perfect will of God. What is the law for then? To reveal God to man. Another thing that must be defined is belief in Christ. Believe is not just accepting that He is God, even Satan knows who God, Christ, the Word, and the Spirit of God are. No, belief is not just saying in your mind God is. To say you believe in Christ for salvation is to say, Romans 10:9
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV
That means trust the revelation of God in Christ. To confess with your mouth he is "Lord" is to subject yourself to the perfect will of God. This means yes you desire to uphold the law because it is perfect but, as a human you will fail. If we believe in our Hearts Christ is the revelation of God and accept Him as our own personal Lord then our actions will testify to the Holy Spirits activity within our hearts. I think the heart should be defined as well. What is the heart is the center of an idividuals being alive. Is Christ, God, the Word, the Holy Spirit the center of your life? the very reason for your living? The eternal spring of hope and life that you hold dear and necessary to your life??? Believe is so much more than an mental idea to say God is or Christ was etc It is to say in your heart God is your Lord. We can not judge anothers heart. Surely the whore in the bible that they were going to stone had broke the law and Christ defended her by saying, who is without sin cast the first stone. Why? Because ALL of us have committed sin and can not condem any person to eternal damnation but can we protect society from a murderer. Sure put them in a prison to keep society safe. We have not judged there soul or even if they have sinned we have simply protected them from the rest of us. As a Christian how do we edify each other to the will of God with in our lives? By incouraging Gods perfectness (that includes the law) and acceptance of our need, hope and trust in Gods perfectness (not ours) and that we trust Him to complete in us this work He has started.
Please read Romans especially chapters five through eight before you reply again and base your statements on what the bible truly says.
Once saved, always saved?
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Anonymous
Be careful what you say
I also must add that you stated our salvation depends on more than, Romans 10:9
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
You said if you believe and you act a certain way.......
The bible clearly states salvation is by believe and confession of Christ as Lord NO AND, YOU MUST ACT THIS WAY.. That is the same trap that the book of Romans warns the jewish leaders fell into.
Salvation is total in FAITH of Romans 10:9 and complete with no additions of you must do this. The idea of the actions of a Christian falling in line with the laws and perfectness of God is an act of the Holy Spirit and gives evidence of the same but does NOT save us.
Be very careful if you say salvation depends on anything more than what the bible says, Romans 10:9, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
You said if you believe and you act a certain way.......
The bible clearly states salvation is by believe and confession of Christ as Lord NO AND, YOU MUST ACT THIS WAY.. That is the same trap that the book of Romans warns the jewish leaders fell into.
Salvation is total in FAITH of Romans 10:9 and complete with no additions of you must do this. The idea of the actions of a Christian falling in line with the laws and perfectness of God is an act of the Holy Spirit and gives evidence of the same but does NOT save us.
Be very careful if you say salvation depends on anything more than what the bible says, Romans 10:9, "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NIV
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BavarianWheels
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I've considered locking this thread a few times for two reasons:
1) neither side has said anything different for the past few pages--we're just going around and around in circles, and
2) comments are getting too personal.
The only reason I haven't is that some new people may want to sift through all this and comment, and I'd prefer not to kill that possibility.
That said, the fact is that we are reading the exact same scriptures from different perspectives. Both sides think they are right. One side must be wrong. Regardless, there won't be any more "I'm right, learn to read the Bible" comments, whatever form they take. If you have anything constructive to add, by all means, that's what these boards are for. But, again, let's stop with the personal attacks at the other side for their understanding (or lack-there-of) concerning what they are reading (or not reading).
1) neither side has said anything different for the past few pages--we're just going around and around in circles, and
2) comments are getting too personal.
The only reason I haven't is that some new people may want to sift through all this and comment, and I'd prefer not to kill that possibility.
That said, the fact is that we are reading the exact same scriptures from different perspectives. Both sides think they are right. One side must be wrong. Regardless, there won't be any more "I'm right, learn to read the Bible" comments, whatever form they take. If you have anything constructive to add, by all means, that's what these boards are for. But, again, let's stop with the personal attacks at the other side for their understanding (or lack-there-of) concerning what they are reading (or not reading).
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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Anonymous
Man, water, monkeys etc all called good
There is the thought that Adam was good morally because God when He looked on the creation He said it was good. That includes all the wild animals, plants, water all that is. In that fulness God said it is good. It was a perfect creation from the perfect God. Each thing in its place to serve its purpose. If we look at the light would we say it is moral or immoral?. If we watch a bunch of chimps tear a baby apart and eat it, we do not say it is moral or immoral after all it is an animal and designed for a purpose. Adam was a man designed for a purpose. With-in Gods perfect creation Adam would have to make the less than perfect moral choice to disobey God. Yes it was GOOD it was what God designed Adam to do. Gods creation is never something He must react to and give man Christ because Adam made a mistake. Adam was designed to show us we are not equal to God. Christ would come as the ONLY perfect man to die for all sin. To show us who God is. God shall complete his perfect work even with the poor choices of an imperfect man.