Christians: Beware of Mitt Romney!

[Murray]

the good book is the bible my freind

And what makes you think joseph smith really say angels, why can you not believe he just did it for money?

[Gman]

the good book is the bible my freind

And what makes you think joseph smith really say angels, why can you not believe he just did it for money?

Well.. There truly were angels involved in his story.. So...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith

[Murray]

I meant to say "saw" sorry

So again, I think he just made the whole thing up to make money, which he did.................

[Philip]

Murray said,

I think he just made the whole thing up to make money, which he did

And perhaps, ORIGINALLY, money WAS essentially Joseph Smith's motivation. In fact, his family had long supplemented its farm income by so-called "treasure-digging." Smith would hire himself out to find lost items and buried treasure by use of a seer stone placed in a white stovepipe hat. To get away with this, he obviously had to continually gain and then fleece new "customers" by staying constantly on the move or by asserting that his current clients were closer to finding what they sought, but that to continue would cost them even more money. There was no shortage of customers because, just as today, there was no shortage of gullible people.

But one must ask themselves, if MONEY was Smith's primary motive for cooking up the Book of Mormon, would he not have used a significantly less complicated scheme (and much more likely to succeed) requiring MUCH less effort and time, thus avoiding the substantial period he supposedly spent in translating the book of golden plates. Obviously literate and charismatic, he could have simply claimed to have prophetic abilities and simply fleeced his followers and stuffed his coffers (like so many charlatans) through the offering plate. As well, and FAR from making his deceptions easy, Smith incurred the wrath of many Christians and pastors around him by making outrageous claims in direct and blasphemous oppositions to what the Bible teaches - which is NOT a particularly savvy strategy IF money was his only (and URGENT) motivation. In fact, in what Smith claimed was his very first vision, in 1820, he said God told him that ALL of the current churches were false and corrupt. What a radical right turn - and NOT merely a piggy backing on established, well-accepted theological beliefs of the day - but a blasphemous, in-your-face challenge to the Christian status quo around him. Believe me, there were much easier paths to taking people's money!

I'd say that Smith, in his great desire to deceive others (whatever his motivations: Money? Power? Influence?), likely was deceived himself - and probably demonically so. Why else would the supposed source of his information claim that the then current Christian church was inauthentic, bogus, corrupt - and that HE had been given the information and visions to restore it? As well, why would the "source" of Smith's information FOCUS on denying the very KEY elements the Bible says are necessary to salvation: Who Jesus is; Who God is; And what OUR correct responses and beliefs concerning them should be, etc?

[Gman]

I meant to say "saw" sorry

So again, I think he just made the whole thing up to make money, which he did.................

Good for you...

[Murray]

L ron hubbard wrote a book and founded a religon that "kills spiritually", Does that make him demon possessed?

[Philip]

L ron hubbard wrote a book and founded a religion that "kills spiritually", Does that make him demon possessed?

Not necessarily. But then again one can be deceived, tempted, influenced or used by the devil without specifically being possessed. And I would say an important clue as to whether a religion's teachings are influenced or originated by Satan is what does its teachings have to say about Jesus or does it teach a way to salvation that contradicts the Bible.

[Murray]

L ron hubbard wrote a book and founded a religion that "kills spiritually", Does that make him demon possessed?

Not necessarily. But then again one can be deceived, tempted, influenced or used by the devil without specifically being possessed. And I would say an important clue as to whether a religion's teachings are influenced or originated by Satan is what does its teachings have to say about Jesus or does it teach a way to salvation that contradicts the Bible.

OR he just wanted to make money.......

[Philip]

Murray, Ah the money angle...yes, certainly it was at least a part of Hubbard's motive: At a New Jersey science fiction convention, in 1951, Hubbard stated, “Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.” So it should be unsurprising that he founded Scientology the very next year.

But as with many cult leaders, Hubbard has a heretical take on Jesus: He wrote, “You will find the Christ legend as an implant in pre-clears a million years ago.”

And the Church of Scientology teaches that Jesus Christ may have believed in reincarnation: “There is much speculation on the part of religious historians as to the early education of Jesus of Nazareth. It is believed by many authorities that Jesus was a member of the cult of the Essenes, who believed in reincarnation. ”

Hubbard also attributes Hindu teachings to Jesus. “Christ,” he wrote, “was a bringer of information. He never announced his sources. He spoke of them as coming from God. But they might just as well have come from the god talked about in the Hymn to the Dawn Child the Veda.” And Hubbard looks down upon Jesus from his OT VIII position, claiming, “Neither Lord Buddha nor Jesus Christ were OT, according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear.”

If a cult leader wants to point to HIS truth being the ultimate one, originated from within himself or revealed via some hidden or mysterious source, it makes every bit of sense why so many of them have some spin on who Jesus was. Cult leaders so often seem very weirdly opinionated about Jesus.

[Widge]

Is the Koran demonic?

[Philip]

Is the Koran demonic?

Ultimately, whether merely inspired by him or directly given, it's source is of the devil, yes.

[jlay]

Even Mohammaed thought he was being spoken to by demons. His wife told him it was from God.

[Murray]

I love histroy and sharing it. So let's get to it.

Muhammad was a general of a tribe of Arabians. He conquered, pillaged, and murdered other tribes. However, after conquering so much he needed a way to control them, now any smart man will figure out a nation with extreme differences in religion and culture will not succeed so he invented the Muslim religion, spread it through what he had conquered and continues to conquer throughout Arabia killing and beheading those that refused in some cases to accept his religion.

This is why some people refer to Muslim religion as a death cult, due to it's extemre emphasis on conquering and killing

[Widge]

I love histroy and sharing it. So let's get to it.

Muhammad was a general of a tribe of Arabians. He conquered, pillaged, and murdered other tribes. However, after conquering so much he needed a way to control them, now any smart man will figure out a nation with extreme differences in religion and culture will not succeed so he invented the Muslim religion, spread it through what he had conquered and continues to conquer throughout Arabia killing and beheading those that refused in some cases to accept his religion.

This is why some people refer to Muslim religion as a death cult, due to it's extemre emphasis on conquering and killing

What about Christians supporting the war on Iraq? That is about killing.

Jesus said even getting angry with someone was murder and he abolished the death penalty too

[Murray]

What?

Christianity was founded on the Iraq war? Well you learn new things every day you know.

And while iraq was not a good idea we had good motives, good intentions going in, and bad intelligence. Politics screwed it up.

Christians also led to the demise of Hitler which caused many deaths, does that mean Christians are bad? Give me bible verses that say we should not uphold our saftey and security?

Or perhaps you should re-read the book of judges, plenty of war for security there.

Now, the death penalty. Did hitler deserve to die? Did osama bin laden deserve? From your logic we should have captured them, and then paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for them to be kept in a nice jail, their nice beds, their nice food, their nice medical care.

Did Jesus say no consequences for peoples actions? No, he did however relieve Levitican, mosian, and Deuteronomy law, which did call for deaths for offences such as adultery. Jesus saved the women because death for adultery was no longer the law of the land since his had come (it was not roman law either).

The death penalty does not kill people spiritually, they can still be forgiven, but they have broken our nations laws so they will be punished by such laws. They are there, they are just. They are fair rules, many based on christian moral principles.