Romans 3:7

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Romans 3:7

Postby Christian2 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:43 am

3 What advantage, then, does the Jew have, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 There are all kinds of advantages! First of all, the Jews[a] have been entrusted with the utterances of God. 3 What if some of the Jews were unfaithful? Their unfaithfulness cannot cancel God’s faithfulness, can it? 4 Of course not! God is true, even if everyone else is a liar. As it is written,

“You are right when you speak,[c]
and win your case when you go into court.”[d]
5 But if our unrighteousness serves to confirm God’s righteousness, what can we say? God is not unrighteous when he vents his wrath on us, is he? (I am talking in human terms.) 6 Of course not! Otherwise, how could God judge the world? 7 For[e] if through my [b]falsehood
God’s truthfulness glorifies him even more, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 Or can we say—as some people slander us by claiming that we say—“Let’s do evil that good may result”? They deserve to be condemned!

I hope you guys can help me with this one.

I wanted to show my Pastor some of the allegations against Christianity and in this case, against Apostle Paul, in an effort to show him what I do on discussion boards.

So, I asked him to interpret Romans 3:7.

Believe it or not, he said Paul inadvertently lied, but would receive grace for his lie because everyone is a sinner.

My best answer is this:

Romans 3 in context:

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

"So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."[a]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

Keep in mind that Paul is carrying on an argument with an imaginary objector. This is how the conversation plays out.

Objector: You say that there is no difference between Gentile and Jew and they are in exactly the same position.

Paul: By no means.

Objector: What is the difference?

Paul: For one thing, the Jews possess what the Gentiles never directly possessed, the commandments of God.

Objector: Yes. But what if some Jews disobeyed these commandments and were unfaithful to God and came under His condemnation? You say that God gave the Jews a special position and a special promise. Now you say that at least some of them are under the condemnation of god. Does that mean that God has broken His promise and shown Himself to be unjust and unreliable?

Paul: Far from it. It does show that there is no favoritism with God and that God punishes sin wherever He finds it. The fact that He condemns the unfaithful Jews is the best possible proof of His absolute justice. He might have been expected to overlook the sins of this special people, but He does not.

Objector: OK, but what you have done is to succeed in showing that my disobedience has given God an opportunity to demonstrate His righteousness. In other words, my unfaithfulness has given God a great opportunity to demonstrate His faithfulness. My sin is, therefore, an excellent thing. It has given God a chance to show how good He is. I may have done evil, but good has come of it. You surely can't condemn someone for giving God a chance to show His justice.

Paul: An argument like that is beneath contempt. You have only to state it to see how intolerable it really is.

Imaginary conversation complied by William Barclay.

There is a word for what Paul is doing here, but it escapes me now.

I would really appreciate your comments.

Thanks.

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Re: Romans 3:7

Postby B. W. » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:02 pm

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and College Commentary explains it like this:

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and College Commentary
Romans 3:3-8

3–8. The Divine Judge will not connive at sin
3–8. For what if some, &c.] Rom 3:3-8 form a passage of much difficulty in detail, though clear as a whole. The difficulty results partly from a doubt as to where the Opponent speaks, and partly from the Apostle’s own thought modifying the words put into the Opponent’s mouth. It will be best to waive a minute discussion of interpretations, and at once to give our own in the shape of a paraphrase.

Rom3:3. (The Jewish Opponent). “You say the Jew has advantage. He has indeed: God’s veracity (truth, faithfulness) is pledged to give him eternal life. For can we think that the unfaithfulness of some Jews to God annuls His faithfulness to the race? Will He fail in His purpose?”

Rom 3:4. (The Apostle.) “God forbid! Rather should we admit any charge of untruth against man, than the least against God. So David saw, and wrote, in his confession of his own sin; his main thought was (Psa_51:4) that he would even own the very worst against himself, that God might be seen to punish him justly.”

Rom 3:5. (The Opponent.) “But hear me further. The sinful unbelief of some Jews, as you own, cannot change His purpose. May I not say more? does it not, by bringing His faithfulness into contrast, glorify Him? and if so, will He punish it? What say you of His justice or injustice in visiting even wicked Jews with wrath?”

Rom 3:6-8. (The Apostle.) “I say, God forbid the thought that He will not punish them. For, on such a principle, how shall God be the universal Judge at all? I too, be I Jew or Gentile, might say as well as you, ‘I choose to tell a lie; somehow or other this will illustrate God’s truth, e.g. by contrast; therefore I ought to be acquitted; I ought to be allowed to act on the principle of evil for the sake of good;’—a principle with which we Christians are charged, but which we utterly condemn.”

We now remark on details.

Romans 3:7

For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”
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Re: Romans 3:7

Postby Christian2 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:53 am

B. W. wrote:The Cambridge Bible for Schools and College Commentary explains it like this:

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and College Commentary
Romans 3:3-8

3–8. The Divine Judge will not connive at sin
3–8. For what if some, &c.] Rom 3:3-8 form a passage of much difficulty in detail, though clear as a whole. The difficulty results partly from a doubt as to where the Opponent speaks, and partly from the Apostle’s own thought modifying the words put into the Opponent’s mouth. It will be best to waive a minute discussion of interpretations, and at once to give our own in the shape of a paraphrase.

Rom3:3. (The Jewish Opponent). “You say the Jew has advantage. He has indeed: God’s veracity (truth, faithfulness) is pledged to give him eternal life. For can we think that the unfaithfulness of some Jews to God annuls His faithfulness to the race? Will He fail in His purpose?”

Rom 3:4. (The Apostle.) “God forbid! Rather should we admit any charge of untruth against man, than the least against God. So David saw, and wrote, in his confession of his own sin; his main thought was (Psa_51:4) that he would even own the very worst against himself, that God might be seen to punish him justly.”

Rom 3:5. (The Opponent.) “But hear me further. The sinful unbelief of some Jews, as you own, cannot change His purpose. May I not say more? does it not, by bringing His faithfulness into contrast, glorify Him? and if so, will He punish it? What say you of His justice or injustice in visiting even wicked Jews with wrath?”

Rom 3:6-8. (The Apostle.) “I say, God forbid the thought that He will not punish them. For, on such a principle, how shall God be the universal Judge at all? I too, be I Jew or Gentile, might say as well as you, ‘I choose to tell a lie; somehow or other this will illustrate God’s truth, e.g. by contrast; therefore I ought to be acquitted; I ought to be allowed to act on the principle of evil for the sake of good;’—a principle with which we Christians are charged, but which we utterly condemn.”

We now remark on details.

Romans 3:7

For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”


Thank you.

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Re: Romans 3:7

Postby B. W. » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:52 am

Does it make sense to you the writing device Paul was using in these verses?
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Re: Romans 3:7

Postby Christian2 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:57 am

B. W. wrote:Does it make sense to you the writing device Paul was using in these verses?
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Yes.

Romans 3 is a hypothetical argument that someone might use in order to justify lying and Paul presents the argument and then refutes it.

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Re: Romans 3:7

Postby bbyrd009 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:08 am

7 It's simply perverse to say, "If my lies serve to show off God's truth all the more gloriously, why blame me? I'm doing God a favor."
8 Some people are actually trying to put such words in our mouths, claiming that we go around saying, "The more evil we do, the more good God does, so let's just do it!" That's pure slander, as I'm sure you'll agree. We're All in the Same Sinking Boat
9 So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:
10 There's nobody living right, not even one,
11 nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
12 They've all taken the wrong turn; they've all wandered down blind alleys. No one's living right; I can't find a single one.
13 Their throats are gaping graves, their tongues slick as mud slides. Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
14 They open their mouths and pollute the air.
15 They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
16 litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
17 Don't know the first thing about living with others.
18 They never give God the time of day.
19 This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else?
20 Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.
"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


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