Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Nessa »

Would jac only give that response to someone whose baby just died if he was phyically next to them? Would he not also give it to them on a 'bloody' board?
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

neo-x wrote:Jac, my original point is perhaps lost, as all have chimed in and there are multiple threads of the discussion going about.

My issue is simpler than what is now a plethora of issues. God killing someone is something I can at least understand, the Bible is filled with it and I have had no problems with that, but people saying God told them to kill someone is something I question. This isn't an attack of God's nature or sovereignty but on the margin of error we humans have time and time again, demonstrated.

Further I don't hold God to any rules, but I do expect a certain familiar pattern of acts that may help in establishing whether its the same God I worship or not. If something falls out of line of those expectations than I have to question that. Otherwise no one can hold anyone responsible for any murder they do in the name of their God. Hey! if our God can command such, why not their God does the same? Then we either accept there is nothing wrong with this principle or we know this isn't right. To borrow Rick's words, "somethings are just wrong".
I think you are drawing a distinction without a difference. So God isn't under any rules. He can kill as He wills. But you take exception to Him commanding someone to do it for Him. So why is He under that rule?

Oh, so it's not a rule, per se. It's an epistemological problem. The problem is that we just don't know whether or not God actually commanded we kill! To which I just shrug my shoulders and say that isn't a problem for me. I hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. I understand you don't, but may I respectfully suggest to you, then, that this is a problem of your own invention, not mine. The moment you accept that God is under no rules, that He can do (and thus command) as He wills, then so long as I have a way to know that God actually commanded this or that, then I have no basis to judge it. Sure, if Scripture isn't inerrant I can judge the killing it talks about. But if Scripture is inspired and inerrant, as it has traditionally been held and which is, in my estimation, strong reason to think it is, then I have the way to know that God commanded it and therefore cannot judge it. In other words, to reject the inerrancy of Scripture on the basis of the killings is circular reasoning.

Beyond that, as far as other people's gods, I just reject the whole premise. There are no such things. No other gods exist. That's like comparing "my logic" and "your logic." There is just logic. If I do it poorly and you do it well, there aren't two logics. There's just me getting it wrong. Just so, there's only one God. So if a Muslim claims Allah told him to kill, there are only three possibilities:

1. Allah is not God, and so does not exist, and so did not issue the command whatever the Muslim claims.
2. Allah is God, but the Muslim has misunderstood the nature of God, such that he thinks God issued the command when He did not.
3. Allah is God, and the Muslim has understood God correctly, such that God really old the Muslim to kill.

I don't see any other options. Now, for reasons totally unrelated to the killing, I can strongly argue either 1 or 2 is correct (depending on how you define terms on a technical level). But regardless, the problem here isn't that Allah is "wrong." The problem is that either Allah does not exist or else God/Allah has been misunderstood by Muslims. Their error, of course, comes from their reading of the Koran.

The same can be made with any so-called "god." To answer in brief, then, their "god" can command whatever (s)he wants if (s)he exists. Those gods don't, though, so I don't judge the actions of the "god." I judge the actions of the people as morally depraved, for they are acting without justification (i.e., the divine command). You can do the same.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

Nessa wrote:Would jac only give that response to someone whose baby just died if he was phyically next to them? Would he not also give it to them on a 'bloody' board?
In principle, of course not, Nessa. But there are practical problems. What my suggested answer I think you are referring to is doing, fundamentally, is validating and providing a comforting presence to the person. Just by the nature of things, though, responses need to be more in the moment, because what you are responding to are emotions and thoughts that people are going through right then. A discussion board is ill suited for such a task. Perhaps an IM system like our mini-chat is better for that. Still not perfect, but better. A phone is better still, and in person the best of all.

In fact, there are many times when I don't say anything. I just sit with people, maybe hold their hands, maybe not, while they just cry. Do it everyday. It may sound totally useless, but I promise you there is profound truth in that act (profound enough that deep theologians have discussed what is happening there). But you clearly can't do that on a discussion board.

I want to be very clear here. When dealing with the emotional level of this issue, we aren't just exchanging ideas. We are being with the sufferer. That may not be impossible, but it is much more difficult, on a board, in which what you are basically doing is . . . exchanging ideas.

Make sense?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by RickD »

Jac,

I think you bring up a really good point that I've mentioned to Neo before. If he doesn't hold to the inerrancy of scripture, then he's got a whole big can of worms that he's going to have to deal with. And this issue brings that to light.

And just to add, I think there's a 4th possibility to your example above.
4) Allah is another spiritual being, besides God, that tells people that he is God, and demands that people kill in his name.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

I WAS GOING FOR A HAT TRICK! :(

Rick, I don't know why the convention is three in a row. Maybe because three posts in any given thread isn't such a unique thing? I just know that three posts in a row on a board is often called a hat trick. Feel free to call it turkey.

Sheesh . . . I just had to explain a joke. Now I feel icky.

*goes to take another shower*
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

RickD wrote:Jac,

I think you bring up a really good point that I've mentioned to Neo before. If he doesn't hold to the inerrancy of scripture, then he's got a whole big can of worms that he's going to have to deal with. And this issue brings that to light.

And just to add, I think there's a 4th possibility to your example above.
4) Allah is another spiritual being, besides God, that tells people that he is God, and demands that people kill in his name.
Agreed. I might wonder if your fourth isn't just another way of saying that Allah isn't God . . . I would submit that any individual being, spiritual or not, is under moral standards if it is rational. But now we're getting overly technical.

Overall . . . LIKE! :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by PaulSacramento »

We have to be careful when we start down the slippery slope of "God is god He can do anything He wants" or God is not under any rules" because we KNOW that is not the case.
God can NOT do anything that is against His very nature as God nor that is a logical contradiction ( make a square triangle for example).
To say that God kills as He wills is fine BUT with the disclaimer that His will is not indiscriminate.
God has the divine right to execute divine judgement on ALL His creation.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by neo-x »

Is God then not under the rule/obligation(or whatever better term you may want to use instead) to always protect his word?
Last edited by neo-x on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by RickD »

Jac3510 wrote:
RickD wrote:Jac,

I think you bring up a really good point that I've mentioned to Neo before. If he doesn't hold to the inerrancy of scripture, then he's got a whole big can of worms that he's going to have to deal with. And this issue brings that to light.

And just to add, I think there's a 4th possibility to your example above.
4) Allah is another spiritual being, besides God, that tells people that he is God, and demands that people kill in his name.
Agreed. I might wonder if your fourth isn't just another way of saying that Allah isn't God . . . I would submit that any individual being, spiritual or not, is under moral standards if it is rational. But now we're getting overly technical.

Overall . . . LIKE! :)
Yes, the 4th is saying Allah isn't God. But it also says that Allah is real, and he did command killing. If Allah is a deceiver, that would explain Muhammad's vision regarding the Koran.

In other words, I'm leaving open the possibility that Muhammad's visions were real. And someone did inspire him to write what is in the Koran. Or the angel he thought was Gabriel, was a different and fallen angel.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Nessa »

Jac3510 wrote:
Nessa wrote:Would jac only give that response to someone whose baby just died if he was phyically next to them? Would he not also give it to them on a 'bloody' board?
In principle, of course not, Nessa. But there are practical problems. What my suggested answer I think you are referring to is doing, fundamentally, is validating and providing a comforting presence to the person. Just by the nature of things, though, responses need to be more in the moment, because what you are responding toi
are emotions and thoughts that people are going through right then. A discussion board is ill suited for such a task. Perhaps an IM system like our mini-chat is better for that. Still not perfect, but better. A phone is better still, and in person the best of all.

In fact, there are many times when I don't say anything. I just sit with people, maybe hold their hands, maybe not, while they just cry. Do it everyday. It may sound totally useless, but I promise you there is profound truth in that act (profound enough that deep theologians have discussed what is happening there). But you clearly can't do that on a discussion board.

I want to be very clear here. When dealing with the emotional level of this issue, we aren't just exchanging ideas. We are being with the sufferer. That may not be impossible, but it is much more difficult, on a board, in which what you are basically doing is . . . exchanging ideas.

Make sense?
Yes, what im saying is that a relational response is not dependent on being physically with someone at all. This is not just a logical unfeeling discussion board. You are going to get people talking about all sorts of stuff whether its in pm or chat or a thread. Relational responses do have a place here.

even the smilies have my back on this one :ewink: y:* y:x :heart: :grouphug: :icare: :donotbesad: :consent:

Edit; of course in personal is ideal where you can get hugs etc. But not always possible. And God himself doesn't offer us a physical hug. Thats different i know but it at least shows that relational responses go deeper than the physical.
Last edited by Nessa on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

I don't know that, Paul. God can do ANYTHING. The "against His nature" part, I appreciate why you've added it. Heck I have said it, but it's redundant. If something is against God's nature it is only because it is a privation, and thus for God to "do it" would be to do that which doesn't exist, which is self-contradictory.

Put this more plainly: God can do any good. It's not that God "can't" do evil. It's that evil isn't a thing. We don't even "do evil" in this very strictly, philosophical sense. We attempt to do good and fail to do so, and our failure results in privations and evil. None of that applies to God. God acts exactly as He wishes, and everything--EVERYTHING--He does is perfect and therefore good. Thus the command to kill women and children either was of God and therefore perfectly good or else it was not of God and therefore a failed attempt (at some level) to do good and therefore an evil act.

But, again, God can do ANYTHING. If God "can't do it," it's not because it is outside of His nature or too hard. It's because it isn't a thing at all.

-------------------------

neo, no. God is under no rule to always protect His word. God is under no rules whatsoever. As we often say on these boards, the question isn't what God can or can't do. The question is what He did do. Did He preserve His Word? And if so, how did He do so? I am convinced that He did, and that, along with my belief in inerrancy, is sufficient for me to write off objections to God's character (for lack of better terms) when talking about things like God's commands to kill in the OT.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Jac3510 »

Nessa wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:
Nessa wrote:Would jac only give that response to someone whose baby just died if he was phyically next to them? Would he not also give it to them on a 'bloody' board?
In principle, of course not, Nessa. But there are practical problems. What my suggested answer I think you are referring to is doing, fundamentally, is validating and providing a comforting presence to the person. Just by the nature of things, though, responses need to be more in the moment, because what you are responding toi
are emotions and thoughts that people are going through right then. A discussion board is ill suited for such a task. Perhaps an IM system like our mini-chat is better for that. Still not perfect, but better. A phone is better still, and in person the best of all.

In fact, there are many times when I don't say anything. I just sit with people, maybe hold their hands, maybe not, while they just cry. Do it everyday. It may sound totally useless, but I promise you there is profound truth in that act (profound enough that deep theologians have discussed what is happening there). But you clearly can't do that on a discussion board.

I want to be very clear here. When dealing with the emotional level of this issue, we aren't just exchanging ideas. We are being with the sufferer. That may not be impossible, but it is much more difficult, on a board, in which what you are basically doing is . . . exchanging ideas.

Make sense?
Yes, what im saying is that a relational response is not dependent on being physically with someone at all. This is not just a logical unfeeling discussion board. You are going to get people talking about all sorts of stuff whether its in pm or chat or a thread. Relational responses do have a place here.

even the smilies have my back on this one :ewink: y:* y:x :heart: :grouphug: :icare: :donotbesad: :consent:
Agreed, but I hope you can agree that the relational aspect of what we do here is literally and in some ways severely hampered by our lack of physical proximity. Maybe the reason we need smilies is to help overcome, in some poor way, that deficiency.

So I'm not saying don't be relational. I'm saying we have to recognize that this medium of communication isn't as good as other mediums for that. Let's never use that as an excuse to be cold. But let's also not expect the tender presence of a loving friend in our deepest times of grief. Let's get all that we can from one another here, for this is what God is providing here. Let's thank Him for it, make full use of it, honor it, but not ask for more. :)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by neo-x »

Jac3510 wrote:
neo-x wrote:Jac, my original point is perhaps lost, as all have chimed in and there are multiple threads of the discussion going about.

My issue is simpler than what is now a plethora of issues. God killing someone is something I can at least understand, the Bible is filled with it and I have had no problems with that, but people saying God told them to kill someone is something I question. This isn't an attack of God's nature or sovereignty but on the margin of error we humans have time and time again, demonstrated.

Further I don't hold God to any rules, but I do expect a certain familiar pattern of acts that may help in establishing whether its the same God I worship or not. If something falls out of line of those expectations than I have to question that. Otherwise no one can hold anyone responsible for any murder they do in the name of their God. Hey! if our God can command such, why not their God does the same? Then we either accept there is nothing wrong with this principle or we know this isn't right. To borrow Rick's words, "somethings are just wrong".
I think you are drawing a distinction without a difference. So God isn't under any rules. He can kill as He wills. But you take exception to Him commanding someone to do it for Him. So why is He under that rule?

Oh, so it's not a rule, per se. It's an epistemological problem. The problem is that we just don't know whether or not God actually commanded we kill! To which I just shrug my shoulders and say that isn't a problem for me. I hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. I understand you don't, but may I respectfully suggest to you, then, that this is a problem of your own invention, not mine. The moment you accept that God is under no rules, that He can do (and thus command) as He wills, then so long as I have a way to know that God actually commanded this or that, then I have no basis to judge it. Sure, if Scripture isn't inerrant I can judge the killing it talks about. But if Scripture is inspired and inerrant, as it has traditionally been held and which is, in my estimation, strong reason to think it is, then I have the way to know that God commanded it and therefore cannot judge it. In other words, to reject the inerrancy of Scripture on the basis of the killings is circular reasoning.
He can kill as He wills
But that is wrong! he may not kill unjustly. This is outside of who or what God is. If he kills unjustly, then he is unjust, hence not God.

Further I take exception because I know human beings, have the great tendency to think God spoke to them despite the contrary. I further take exception again because to the people he commanded such and such, it was very convenient for them, with the loot/plunder/land and all that.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by neo-x »

neo, no. God is under no rule to always protect His word. God is under no rules whatsoever. As we often say on these boards, the question isn't what God can or can't do. The question is what He did do. Did He preserve His Word? And if so, how did He do so? I am convinced that He did, and that, along with my belief in inerrancy, is sufficient for me to write off objections to God's character (for lack of better terms) when talking about things like God's commands to kill in the OT.
And that is exactly my point Jac, it isn't about what he can or can't do but what he did do? did he tell Israel to kill innocent infants?

Edit: You see Jac, that same scripture usually explains the evil which is the reason why God usually kills someone, from Noah's flood to Soddom and Gomorrah. But in this particular case the indication is quite the reverse, there is no evil factor to kill babies and yet a command is given, and so I wonder why? Now you may trust inerrancy and that may not be your problem as you have said so, and I tend to agree with you. But for me this problem is there, may be you have learnt something I have not. I do know that God may not kill unjustly. I really don't understand a God who would kill unjustly. Is that the God I know or worship? It would be a surprise for me if that is the case indeed.

And further we both agree he is under no obligation, yet you believe he preserved his word. You are convinced but where does this conviction comes from? Surely not from his word for that is circular reasoning. So what makes you think he preserved his word?
EDIT: This last question is based on curiosity, if you choose to share. Thanks.
Last edited by neo-x on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:47 am, edited 6 times in total.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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Re: Does God Ever Take Life or Order Its Taking?

Post by Nessa »

jac
Agreed. I just think that its easy to minimise or dismiss something because its not the ideal situation e.g being physically close. Even reading a book can bring an amazing source of comfort. Are words merely letters on a page or screen?
Last edited by Nessa on Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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